I think I'll stick with my American gas guzzlers. Is it still true that hybrids cost so much upfront you won't save money on gas?
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Chuck Bartosch <[email protected]>wrote: > Obviously a hybrid has a hybrid engine or it wouldn't be a hybrid. It > can't kick the saved braking energy into a gas engine, hence the need > for the second engine. As I understand it, a hybrid also saves because > they are often designed to shut off the gas engine when coasting, > slowing, stopped or idling (non hybrids *could* be designed that way > too, if you trusted the engine to always start back up), and to > provide an acceleration boost, allowing the gas engine to work in a > more efficient range. > > A hybrid gains gas mileage at low speeds partly because it recovers > braking energy, not because it has an electric engine per se. If you > could recover braking energy and use it in a conventional car and shut > off the engine when slowing, stopping, and idling, it'd have better > gas mileage too when you drive slower due to reduce aero drag. > > The truth is, if you drove a hybrid for 400 miles at 30 MPH without > braking and the same car with a conventional engine for 200 miles at > 30 MPH without braking, you should end up with pretty much the same MPG. > > Starting a gas engine to charge a battery to run an electric engine > loses energy every time an energy conversion is made (gas to > mechanical to stored electrical back to mechanical). However, if > you're accelerating a lot, the electric engine picks up a big > advantage, especially if the driver is a lead foot, because that's > what electrical engines are good at...going from stopped to 'fast' > without a lot of waste. As far as I am aware, that is the primary > reason to use *gas* to charge batteries to run an electric motor > because otherwise it'd be *less* efficient, and IS less efficient in > constant load driving (say highway driving in flat areas). > > On the other hand, at constant highway speeds, hybrid and conventional > cars are essentially the same though hybrid cars are often designed > with more attention to gas saving than conventional cars so they eke > out a bit more for reasons that could have been applied to the > conventional car (for example, possibly shutting off the engine when > coasting down a slight hill). > > Chuck > > On Feb 12, 2009, at 9:44 AM, [email protected] wrote: > > > That description is not hybrid. Its called KERS (Kinetic Energy > > Recovery System) and is a technique used to recharge the batteries > > in a hybrid car without using the gas engine to recharge the > > battery. Most hybrid cars have a battery driven engine and a gas > > powered engine. when driving it will primary use the battery engine > > but if the batteries starts to get run down the gas engine starts up > > to propel the car and recharge the battery in newer hybrid you have > > the KERS to help boost the recharge by recovering energy when > > breaking which is why a hybrid car can get so very good city traffic > > mileage since obviously you have to break and stop. > > > > /Eje > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chuck Bartosch <[email protected]> > > > > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:17:39 > > To: WISPA General List<[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > > > > > > Right-the primary reason a hybrid saves gas is by recovering *some* > > otherwise wasted braking energy. But you'd get better mileage by not > > breaking in the first place, which you don't hopefully do a lot of on > > the highway. > > > > Chuck > > > > On Feb 12, 2009, at 8:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote: > > > >> Not on the highway it won't. grin That's the biggest reason I > >> didn't even > >> look at one. Highway miles (almost all of my 30k+ per year miles) > >> are often > >> no better than any other rig. > >> marlon > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mike Hammett" <[email protected]> > >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:10 AM > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >> > >> > >>> You can still drive a hybrid... > >>> > >>> > http://www.internationaltrucks.com/portal/site/ITrucks/menuitem.a1d4a3932b46e05831f8e968121010a0/?vgnextoid=945d07aafbfe6110VgnVCM10000085d0eb0aRCRD > >>> > >>> UPS also has some of their trucks powered by International hybrid > >>> technology. I think the one our local center had was getting over > >>> 40 mpg. > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- > >>> Mike Hammett > >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions > >>> http://www.ics-il.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------------------- > >>> From: "Mark Nash" <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:15 PM > >>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >>> > >>>> I always thought of buying a hybrid... > >>>> > >>>> ...then putting it in the bed of my truck and hauling it around > >>>> just to > >>>> say > >>>> that I take my hybrid everywhere I go... > >>>> > >>>> Mark Nash > >>>> UnwiredWest > >>>> 78 Centennial Loop > >>>> Suite E > >>>> Eugene, OR 97401 > >>>> 541-998-5555 > >>>> 541-998-5599 fax > >>>> http://www.unwiredwest.com > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <[email protected]> > >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38 PM > >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Made me think of a license plate holder I saw on an SUV: > >>>>> "Buy a hybrid, I need your gas!" > >>>>> > >>>>> ryan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> D. Ryan Spott > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> If it makes you feel better, today we only got 8mpg while pulling > >>>>>> our sno-cat (with a Duramax even) at 80mph down the freeway. ;) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Travis > >>>>>> Microserv > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Mark Nash wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> LOL I was just thinking about revitalizing this thread as I was > >>>>>>> speeding > >>>>>>> across our valley here because one of our techs called in sick. > >>>>>>> Had 4 > >>>>>>> appointments to keep...about 120 miles to cover... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...and MY service truck is an F350/V10 - crew cab - full bed. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...I get 10 on a good day. :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Mark Nash > >>>>>>> UnwiredWest > >>>>>>> 78 Centennial Loop > >>>>>>> Suite E > >>>>>>> Eugene, OR 97401 > >>>>>>> 541-998-5555 > >>>>>>> 541-998-5599 fax > >>>>>>> http://www.unwiredwest.com > >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:44 AM > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> fyi, it's not a van... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > http://www.leasetrader.com/photos/actual98286/640x480/GMC-Envoy-XL-Sport-Utility.jpeg > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I wanted a red or blue one with a v8 (327 and those one's > >>>>>>>> HAUL!!!!). Had > >>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>> settle for a completely loaded white one though. Leather, DVD > >>>>>>>> for > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> kids, > >>>>>>>> heated seats and seat backs, blinkers on the mirrors, air ride > >>>>>>>> suspension > >>>>>>>> (this rig rides better than any car I've ever had) etc. It's > >>>>>>>> also > >>>>>>>> nearly > >>>>>>>> a > >>>>>>>> foot and a half longer than the standard version. So when you > >>>>>>>> get > >>>>>>>> one > >>>>>>>> make > >>>>>>>> sure you look for the one with the 3rd seat. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw=gmc+envoy+xl&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=gmc+envoy&_osacat=0 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> These are the same thing as the Chevy Trailblazer. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The XUV version looks pretty interesting too. I ALMOST got > >>>>>>>> one of > >>>>>>>> them, > >>>>>>>> didn't like the sales guy though so I walked out on the deal. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/GMC-XUV/Photos.htm > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> They have some of those on ebay too: > >>>>>>>> > http://shop.ebay.com/items/__xuv?_trkparms=72%253A317%257C66%253A2%257C65%253A12%257C39%253A1&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_pgn=2 > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> laters, > >>>>>>>> Marlon > >>>>>>>> (509) 982-2181 > >>>>>>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services > >>>>>>>> 42846865 (icq) WISP Operator > >>>>>>>> since > >>>>>>>> 1999! > >>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > >>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 11:13 AM > >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> If we could get a van like that financed I would be in > >>>>>>>>> heaven - > >>>>>>>>> my main > >>>>>>>>> benefit is just as you said, everything stays warm. Steel and > >>>>>>>>> cold just > >>>>>>>>> do > >>>>>>>>> not mix. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman > >>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 > >>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 > >>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St > >>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 > >>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, > >>>>>>>>> poorly. > >>>>>>>>> --- Henry Spencer > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Marlon K. Schafer (509) > >>>>>>>>> 982-2181 < > >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> I just picked up an '04 GMC Envoy XL. It's the one with the > >>>>>>>>>> 3rd > >>>>>>>>>> seat. > >>>>>>>>>> I'm > >>>>>>>>>> only getting 16 to 17 mpg with it but it's cheap to insure > >>>>>>>>>> and is > >>>>>>>>>> totally > >>>>>>>>>> loaded. It was just over $13k for a 50,000 mile rig with no > >>>>>>>>>> real flaws. > >>>>>>>>>> I > >>>>>>>>>> did end up having to replace the radiator already, but that > >>>>>>>>>> didn't show > >>>>>>>>>> up > >>>>>>>>>> at first. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> The ladder sits on top nicely and is easy to reach. > >>>>>>>>>> Everything > >>>>>>>>>> else > >>>>>>>>>> sits > >>>>>>>>>> well inside. As a bonus all of my tools etc. stay warm in > >>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>> winter > >>>>>>>>>> and > >>>>>>>>>> cold in the summer. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> The 4 wheel drive has been really nice this winter too. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Best of all? No one else drives around with a ladder on top > >>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>> one. > >>>>>>>>>> EVERYONE knows my rig. That alone is a nice sales too. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Marlon > >>>>>>>>>> (509) 982-2181 > >>>>>>>>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting > >>>>>>>>>> services > >>>>>>>>>> 42846865 (icq) WISP > >>>>>>>>>> Operator > >>>>>>>>>> since > >>>>>>>>>> 1999! > >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] > >>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless > >>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:46 AM > >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Service vehicle > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> What does everyone use for a service vehicle? We have an > >>>>>>>>>>> 1999 > >>>>>>>>>>> f250 > >>>>>>>>>>> that is at the end of it's road. It has the cabinets and > >>>>>>>>>>> ladder racks > >>>>>>>>>>> to put al our stuff in. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Our tower climber for those picky tower owners has a brand > >>>>>>>>>>> new > >>>>>>>>>>> Dodge. > >>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't seen these check them out. If we could > >>>>>>>>>>> afford > >>>>>>>>>>> these I > >>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be asking :( > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman > >>>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340 > >>>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 > >>>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St > >>>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337 > >>>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373 > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent > >>>>>>>>>>> it, > >>>>>>>>>>> poorly. > >>>>>>>>>>> --- Henry Spencer > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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Join today! > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] > >> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > >> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > -------------- > > Chuck Bartosch > > Clarity Connect, Inc. > > 200 Pleasant Grove Road > > Ithaca, NY 14850 > > (607) 257-8268 > > > > If all is not lost, where is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > WISPA Wants You! 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