Until gas is about $4/gallon, yes. But, it depends if there's a  
subsidy on the car still, and which model you're getting. It's nearly  
impossible (for example) to recover the cost difference on a Toyota  
Highlander iirc. But the Highlander _does_ get better acceleration ;-).

Chuck

On Feb 12, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

> I think I'll stick with my American gas guzzlers.  Is it still true  
> that
> hybrids cost so much upfront you won't save money on gas?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Chuck Bartosch <ch...@clarityconnect.com 
> >wrote:
>
>> Obviously a hybrid has a hybrid engine or it wouldn't be a hybrid. It
>> can't kick the saved braking energy into a gas engine, hence the need
>> for the second engine. As I understand it, a hybrid also saves  
>> because
>> they are often designed to shut off the gas engine when coasting,
>> slowing, stopped or idling (non hybrids *could* be designed that way
>> too, if you trusted the engine to always start back up), and to
>> provide an acceleration boost, allowing the gas engine to work in a
>> more efficient range.
>>
>> A hybrid gains gas mileage at low speeds partly because it recovers
>> braking energy, not because it has an electric engine per se. If you
>> could recover braking energy and use it in a conventional car and  
>> shut
>> off the engine when slowing, stopping, and idling, it'd have better
>> gas mileage too when you drive slower due to reduce aero drag.
>>
>> The truth is, if you drove a hybrid for 400 miles at 30 MPH without
>> braking and the same car with a conventional engine for 200 miles at
>> 30 MPH without braking, you should end up with pretty much the same  
>> MPG.
>>
>> Starting a gas engine to charge a battery to run an electric engine
>> loses energy every time an energy conversion is made (gas to
>> mechanical to stored electrical back to mechanical). However, if
>> you're accelerating a lot, the electric engine picks up a big
>> advantage, especially if the driver is a lead foot, because that's
>> what electrical engines are good at...going from stopped to 'fast'
>> without a lot of waste. As far as I am aware, that is the primary
>> reason to use *gas* to charge batteries to run an electric motor
>> because otherwise it'd be *less* efficient, and IS less efficient in
>> constant load driving (say highway driving in flat areas).
>>
>> On the other hand, at constant highway speeds, hybrid and  
>> conventional
>> cars are essentially the same though hybrid cars are often designed
>> with more attention to gas saving than conventional cars so they eke
>> out a bit more for reasons that could have been applied to the
>> conventional car (for example, possibly shutting off the engine when
>> coasting down a slight hill).
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2009, at 9:44 AM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:
>>
>>> That description is not hybrid. Its called KERS (Kinetic Energy
>>> Recovery System) and is a technique used to recharge the batteries
>>> in a hybrid car without using the gas engine to recharge the
>>> battery. Most hybrid cars have a battery driven engine and a gas
>>> powered engine. when driving it will primary use the battery engine
>>> but if the batteries starts to get run down the gas engine starts up
>>> to propel the car and recharge the battery in newer hybrid you have
>>> the KERS to help boost the recharge by recovering energy when
>>> breaking which is why a hybrid car can get so very good city traffic
>>> mileage since obviously you have to break and stop.
>>>
>>> /Eje
>>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Chuck Bartosch <ch...@clarityconnect.com>
>>>
>>> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:17:39
>>> To: WISPA General List<wireless@wispa.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>
>>>
>>> Right-the primary reason a hybrid saves gas is by recovering *some*
>>> otherwise wasted braking energy. But you'd get better mileage by not
>>> breaking in the first place, which you don't hopefully do a lot of  
>>> on
>>> the highway.
>>>
>>> Chuck
>>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2009, at 8:54 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not on the highway it won't.  grin  That's the biggest reason I
>>>> didn't even
>>>> look at one.  Highway miles (almost all of my 30k+ per year miles)
>>>> are often
>>>> no better than any other rig.
>>>> marlon
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mike Hammett" <wispawirel...@ics-il.net>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:10 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You can still drive a hybrid...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.internationaltrucks.com/portal/site/ITrucks/menuitem.a1d4a3932b46e05831f8e968121010a0/?vgnextoid=945d07aafbfe6110VgnVCM10000085d0eb0aRCRD
>>>>>
>>>>> UPS also has some of their trucks powered by International hybrid
>>>>> technology.  I think the one our local center had was getting over
>>>>> 40 mpg.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>> From: "Mark Nash" <markl...@uwol.net>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:15 PM
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>>
>>>>>> I always thought of buying a hybrid...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...then putting it in the bed of my truck and hauling it around
>>>>>> just to
>>>>>> say
>>>>>> that I take my hybrid everywhere I go...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Nash
>>>>>> UnwiredWest
>>>>>> 78 Centennial Loop
>>>>>> Suite E
>>>>>> Eugene, OR 97401
>>>>>> 541-998-5555
>>>>>> 541-998-5599 fax
>>>>>> http://www.unwiredwest.com
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "D. Ryan Spott" <rsp...@cspott.com>
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:38 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Made me think of a license plate holder I saw on an SUV:
>>>>>>> "Buy a hybrid, I need your gas!"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ryan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D. Ryan Spott
>>>>>>> rsp...@cspott.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 10, 2009, at 6:33 PM, Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it makes you feel better, today we only got 8mpg while  
>>>>>>>> pulling
>>>>>>>> our sno-cat (with a Duramax even) at 80mph down the freeway. ;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Travis
>>>>>>>> Microserv
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark Nash wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LOL I was just thinking about revitalizing this thread as I  
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> speeding
>>>>>>>>> across our valley here because one of our techs called in  
>>>>>>>>> sick.
>>>>>>>>> Had 4
>>>>>>>>> appointments to keep...about 120 miles to cover...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...and MY service truck is an F350/V10 - crew cab - full bed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ...I get 10 on a good day. :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark Nash
>>>>>>>>> UnwiredWest
>>>>>>>>> 78 Centennial Loop
>>>>>>>>> Suite E
>>>>>>>>> Eugene, OR 97401
>>>>>>>>> 541-998-5555
>>>>>>>>> 541-998-5599 fax
>>>>>>>>> http://www.unwiredwest.com
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181"  
>>>>>>>>> <o...@odessaoffice.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:44 AM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> fyi, it's not a van...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://www.leasetrader.com/photos/actual98286/640x480/GMC-Envoy-XL-Sport-Utility.jpeg
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I wanted a red or blue one with a v8 (327 and those one's
>>>>>>>>>> HAUL!!!!).  Had
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> settle for a completely loaded white one though.  Leather,  
>>>>>>>>>> DVD
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> kids,
>>>>>>>>>> heated seats and seat backs, blinkers on the mirrors, air  
>>>>>>>>>> ride
>>>>>>>>>> suspension
>>>>>>>>>> (this rig rides better than any car I've ever had) etc.  It's
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>> nearly
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> foot and a half longer than the standard version.  So when  
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>>> sure you look for the one with the 3rd seat.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_dmptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories?_nkw=gmc+envoy+xl&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=gmc+envoy&_osacat=0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> These are the same thing as the Chevy Trailblazer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The XUV version looks pretty interesting too.  I ALMOST got
>>>>>>>>>> one of
>>>>>>>>>> them,
>>>>>>>>>> didn't like the sales guy though so I walked out on the deal.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/GMC-XUV/Photos.htm
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They have some of those on ebay too:
>>>>>>>>>>
>> http://shop.ebay.com/items/__xuv?_trkparms=72%253A317%257C66%253A2%257C65%253A12%257C39%253A1&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_pgn=2
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> laters,
>>>>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>>>>> (509) 982-2181
>>>>>>>>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting  
>>>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>>>> 42846865 (icq)                                    WISP  
>>>>>>>>>> Operator
>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> 1999!
>>>>>>>>>> o...@odessaoffice.com
>>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
>>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
>>>>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 11:13 AM
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If we could get a van like that financed I would be in
>>>>>>>>>>> heaven -
>>>>>>>>>>> my main
>>>>>>>>>>> benefit is just as you said, everything stays warm.  Steel  
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> cold just
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> not mix.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent  
>>>>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>>>>> poorly.
>>>>>>>>>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 1:18 PM, Marlon K. Schafer (509)
>>>>>>>>>>> 982-2181 <
>>>>>>>>>>> o...@odessaoffice.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I just picked up an '04 GMC Envoy XL.  It's the one with  
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3rd
>>>>>>>>>>>> seat.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> only getting 16 to 17 mpg with it but it's cheap to insure
>>>>>>>>>>>> and is
>>>>>>>>>>>> totally
>>>>>>>>>>>> loaded.  It was just over $13k for a 50,000 mile rig with  
>>>>>>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>>>>>> real flaws.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>> did end up having to replace the radiator already, but that
>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't show
>>>>>>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>>> at first.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ladder sits on top nicely and is easy to reach.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Everything
>>>>>>>>>>>> else
>>>>>>>>>>>> sits
>>>>>>>>>>>> well inside.  As a bonus all of my tools etc. stay warm in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> winter
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> cold in the summer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The 4 wheel drive has been really nice this winter too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best of all?  No one else drives around with a ladder on  
>>>>>>>>>>>> top
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>>>>>>> EVERYONE knows my rig.  That alone is a nice sales too.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marlon
>>>>>>>>>>>> (509) 982-2181
>>>>>>>>>>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting
>>>>>>>>>>>> services
>>>>>>>>>>>> 42846865 (icq)                                    WISP
>>>>>>>>>>>> Operator
>>>>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1999!
>>>>>>>>>>>> o...@odessaoffice.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Josh Luthman" <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 7:46 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Service vehicle
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does everyone use for a service vehicle?  We have an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1999
>>>>>>>>>>>>> f250
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is at the end of it's road.  It has the cabinets and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ladder racks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to put al our stuff in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Our tower climber for those picky tower owners has a brand
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dodge.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you haven't seen these check them out.  If we could
>>>>>>>>>>>>> afford
>>>>>>>>>>>>> these I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be asking :(
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suite 1337
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> poorly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- Henry Spencer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>
>>> --------------
>>> Chuck Bartosch
>>> Clarity Connect, Inc.
>>> 200 Pleasant Grove Road
>>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>>> (607) 257-8268
>>>
>>> If all is not lost, where is it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>> --------------
>> Chuck Bartosch
>> Clarity Connect, Inc.
>> 200 Pleasant Grove Road
>> Ithaca, NY 14850
>> (607) 257-8268
>>
>> If all is not lost, where is it?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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--------------
Chuck Bartosch
Clarity Connect, Inc.
200 Pleasant Grove Road
Ithaca, NY 14850
(607) 257-8268

If all is not lost, where is it?





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