Quoting from K9YC:
"It is a LONG established principle of ham radio, defined by FCC Rules and
corresponding laws in other countries, that no one person or group has
priority on any given frequency at any given time; indeed, these Rules
(laws) establish only permitted emission types for a range of frequencies."
No on has said that what DXp mode is doing is illegal, or violating rules.
Spare us us the straw man arguments. The crux of the matter has been the
devastating impact this particular mode of operation (DXp, not FT8
specifically) has on the existing digital mode operations. To use your own
"logic"..."*It has been a long established principle to have modes
segregated by users' agreement to preserve their viability*" This prevents
chaos, as well as incidental and deliberate interference that does no one
justice.
These *voluntary* agreements among people of good will (not the hysterical
I gotta have that new grid or country and screw anyone in my road, crowd),
have been around a long time.
Further quoting:
"This discussion is totally out of place on the developers' reflector.
Rather, it should be addressed to those hearty individuals who give of
their time and treasure to put stations on the air from usually very
difficult places and under difficult conditions, and for the benefit of
tens of thousands of hams around the world. Choice of operating frequencies
and times is THEIRS."
My Response: :
Not at all. The developers knew or should have known (legal standard for
*neglect*, by the way) the impact that DXp; would have had on any set of
frequencies *where they encouraged* DXp mode use.. Proof of this knowledge
is in the developers' explicit instructions to "*not run DXp mode in the
normal FT8 usage area*" . Why? For two reasons: 1) DXp trashes the spectrum
for whomever was already using it; 2). It was a cleaner test to be away
from the mutual interference of current FT8 usage.
In other words, "We don't want to mess up our nest, someone else's nest
will do nicely" This is what I meant when I referred to the approach
as "*hypocritical
and dismissive indifference" To say there are no nests is disingenuous at
best.*
*Running DXp by the developers for testing and evaluation is justifiable.
Releasing DXp "into the wild" with no restraints or protections from abuse
is irresponsible. *
*There are solutions, but they rest ONLY in the hands of the developers*.
Many DX'ers (do you listen to the conduct during DXpediitons?) have no
conscience whatever. They are incapable of self-restraint in the pursuit of
their self-imagined accomplishments. DXpeditions spend enough money and are
sufficiently popular to create in their minds and the minds of their
minions, the firm belief that they are *entitled* to do whatever they like.
I happily stipulate that the software is amazing. I love using it. Yet,
there are *norms* that exist for the benefit of all of us.
In summary, norms and agreements may be even more important than FCC
rules. Rules
are a required element of success, but they are not sufficient for same.
Success ultimately requires cooperation and consideration
Discussion of the impact of DXp mode on the developers' list is precisely
where it should take place. It was created and released by the developers.
The deleterious impact of that release is at least partially their
responsibility.
73, N0AN
Hasan
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 8:01 PM, Mike Besemer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Like or not, the inconsistency exists. I'm not the one who set it up that
> way and neither of our opinions really matters anyway; the fact is that
> 7070 has been in use by PSK for over 15 years in Region 2 and there is no
> reason NOT to know that; it is widely published for anyone to see. If you
> think I'm pulling that fact out of my posterior, feel free to Google it
> yourself.
>
> I'm not sure where you get the idea I have a limited world view; I clearly
> stated in several of my emails that things always go to hell in a
> handbasket when rare DX hits the bands. As for not buying my comment about
> 7040 being mostly EU, that's the way the bandplan has it set up. Again,
> Google is your friend. If you're hearing PSK on 7040 during the day in
> your area, there are obviously stations in your area using it; leave it to
> the left coast to have it ass-backwards. I'm not a no-code tech... I've
> been doing this for over 40 years and I don't appreciate you talking down
> to me.
>
> I get it... you don’t like PSK-31. That's fine, but you need not throw
> stones at those of us who do. If you like FT8 and the
> wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am type of contact, more power to you. Those of us
> who care more about the human element of ham radio than our DXCC or grid
> count are fine with that. All we ask is that you leave us the hell alone
> in our little 2 KHz segment of the band and for God's sake be a gentleman
> and listen before you transmit; anything less is nothing less than an
> indication of a piss-poor operator. We don't move up into your area
> during our contests... we'd appreciate the same treatment.
>
> Frankly, those of us on PSK are not going to go around trying to police
> what the DXpeditions are trying to do. We have no means to do so and they
> wouldn't listen to us anyway. The developers are the one who let this
> genie out of the bottle and they are damn well responsible for what happens
> when it is misused. They could very easily license Fox mode to individual
> DXpeditions, requiring them to do a little coordination before issuing the
> license. No coordination - no Fox Mode - period. And that entire process
> would be a lot less painful that listening to us bitching about you all the
> time.
>
> There are over 100 emails on this subject today in the various PSK groups
> that I belong to and the PSK community is pissed. If you think my tone
> here is ugly, you ought to hear what's being said behind your back. As far
> as I can tell, NOBODY with any authority to fix this problem has ever piped
> up about what can be done, or even acknowledged that people are
> complaining. What I keep hearing is 'it ain't illegal for us to be there,
> so we're gonna be there', which once again is the sign of a piss-poor
> operator and a lousy excuse for a human being. What IS illegal is
> intentional interference - and a lot of people are convinced that that's
> what's happening.
>
> I'm done here... I've said my peace and don't expect anyone to listen. If
> the developers only care about FT8 users, then the rest of us are wasting
> our breath anyway. If the developers give a damn about what's good for
> them and for ham radio, they'll step in and clean up the mess they made.
>
> WM4B BT CL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Brown [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 4:24 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] DXpedition Mode on 40 Meters?
>
> On 3/27/2018 3:59 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> > 7040 is used mostly in Europe. Region 2 uses 7070 - thus the
> > existence of the 070 Club, of which I've been a member for 15 or more
> > years.
>
> That inconsistency is totally inappropriate on a band that supports
> worldwide QSOs. A comparable disconnect in the voluntary Region One and
> Region Two bandplans occurs on 6M, where summertime openings often support
> QSOs between NA and EU, yet the digital are more than 100 kHz apart. And I
> don't buy the 7040 segment "mainly in EU;" I'm near San Francisco, and it's
> often full of PSK during daylight hours that are far too loud to be coming
> from EU.
>
> I am in complete disagreement with your position and your quite limited
> "world view" of ham operation. Have you never heard a pileup for a
> DXpedition to a rare place? It's common for 10-15 kHz to be wall-to-wall on
> CW and RTTY, and twice that on SSB. And for there to be hundreds of
> stations calling within one of those pileups. Or in a major contest, when
> participants on any given band can outnumber casual operators by more than
> 200:1? And how are the "brag tapes" that turned me and many of my friends
> off to PSK and RTTY for casual operation different from FT8?
>
> From where I sit, WSJT-X developers have done wonderful things that have
> opened new possibilities for those of us who push the envelope. EU most
> bands is a heavy lift from NorCal, and really tough below 20M.
> Working ANYTHING can be tough for those in antenna-challenged QTHs, and
> the WSJT-X modes open new possibilities for them as well.
>
> It is a LONG established principle of ham radio, defined by FCC Rules and
> corresponding laws in other countries, that no one person or group has
> priority on any given frequency at any given time; indeed, these Rules
> (laws) establish only permitted emission types for a range of frequencies.
>
> This discussion is totally out of place on the developers' reflector.
> Rather, it should be addressed to those hearty individuals who give of
> their time and treasure to put stations on the air from usually very
> difficult places and under difficult conditions, and for the benefit of
> tens of thousands of hams around the world. Choice of operating frequencies
> and times is THEIRS.
>
> FWIW, I mainly operate CW, but also enjoy RTTY contesting. 160M is one of
> my favorite bands for chasing DX, and I'm currently using WSJT-X modes to
> work SC and VT to finish 160M QRP WAS. There are no FCC allocations by mode
> on 160M; gentlemens' agreements in NA have long confined CW below 1840, SSB
> above it, and WSJT-X users between 1836 and 1843. But for big 160M
> contests, CW goes well above 1900, SSB goes well below 1820, WSJT-X modes
> get overrun. And everyone adjusts to it.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
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