It doesn't matter how inconvenient it is to code in various region's FT8
"sub band". The DXp mode created the problem, it is already very
complicated code. The further complication of exclusion zones for DXp by
region, is a pittance compared to the initial investment.
Otherwise all we have is the tyranny of the majority, instead of respecting
the legitimate concerns of existing mode users.
*It was a virtual certainty that DXp would be abused*. It's one thing to
not have foreseen this (Law of Unintended Consequences), it is entirely
another to be dismissively indifferent to said consequences (let them eat
cake)
The utter hypocrisy of "NIMBY", is stunning. (Not in MY Back Yard). If DXp
is such a great thing and not disruptive, and only a minor inconvenience
that will "quiet down", put your money where your mouth is ....do it
INSIDE the normal FT8 "allocation". Tell me what you think after a few "dx
operations"
Hasan
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:51 AM, Tom Melvin <[email protected]> wrote:
> Not going to work.
>
> Taking 40m as example - What is the ‘FT8 allocation’ ? - all that could
> be coded would be the MGM allocation - nothing says FT8 needs to be 7.074 -
> UK band plan has digi modes 7.053 - 7.060 and the rest of the 7 Mhz
> allocation is ‘All Modes’. PSK31 starts from 7.040 - which is actually
> well away from 7.071 that was in use last night.
>
> Yes there are a few 'centre of activities’, may vary slightly by region -
> heck a job to code all those into Dx mode esp the number of bands and
> regions there are these days.
>
> How many ‘proper’ DX piditions will there be? - if you have your favourite
> chat freq on SSB suddenly taken over by an expedition do you throw toys out
> of pram and blame those that introduced SSB - no you realises it will be a
> few days or a week or so and you live with it.
>
> The general usage of the watering holes will quieten down over time - not
> addressing that just the Dx Mode - 100% of the time it will be the
> expedition itself that specifies the frequencies they plan to use - it is
> those people you need to address this issue to. Remind them there are
> others ‘watering holes’ in the all mode section they should avoid. Perhaps
> there should be a ‘Centre of activity’ on each band for DX operations?
>
> 73’
> Tom
> GM8MJV
>
>
>
>
> On 27 Mar 2018, at 13:15, [email protected] wrote:
>
> Hasan,
>
> Thank you for that very eloquent post! I think your suggestions are
> spot-on and I'd LOVE to see all of them implemented.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike
> WM4B
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 7:46 AM, Hasan al-Basri wrote:
>
> I agree with every point that Mike (WM4B) made. DXpedition mode is
> becoming a scourge on the bands w/r to other modes.
>
>
> Another person asked for suggestion instead of complaints.
>
>
> OK, try this on:
>
>
> 1.Disable the mode until *real *precautions are taken to observe the
> current watering holes for other modes.
>
>
> 2. *Recode so that DXp mode can ONLY be run in the normal FT8 band
> space...that way, when these rogue or even legitimate DXp projects come on,
> they will trash the normal FT8 sections *...see how much you like it when
> your favorite operating (and agreed upon) frequencies are trashed by a
> bunch of hysterical dx'ers.
>
>
> Since DXp largely requires CAT mode, it should be straightforward (and
> only responsible on the part of the authors) to code in a requirement to *run
> DXp mode in the current FT8 Allotment. *
> *They did it for WSPR... *
>
>
> This would be especially fitting since the FT8 authors created this
> monster...the FT8 crowd should be made to live with it.
>
>
> ...and it's easy to dismiss things as "not much of a crisis" when it's
> someone else's nest that's being fowled.
>
>
> Maybe it's time for the FT8 nest to be fowled. and see how much that is
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Hasan
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 6:22 AM, < *[email protected]*> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> As I said, I've recently heard some very good conversation here about the
> need to avoid QRM to other modes; that's part of the reason it was so
> disappointing to see 40 meters get trashed last night all the way down to
> 7068 - or perhaps lower.
>
> The reason I address the developers is twofold. First, I (for one)
> certainly saw the potential for this to happen when DXpedition mode was
> first discussed. This is the genie they let out of the bottle and I can't
> believe they didn't' foresee the potential consequences. Second, as
> developers, they should take some responsibility for how their product is
> used - and you'd certainly think they'd want it to be used in a manner that
> would show them and their product in a positive light.
>
> Recent discussion suggested moving towards the underutilized JT
> frequencies, and I think that makes sense. Aside from low utilization, FT8
> and the JT modes share a father, so I think it's only fair that they live
> together as family.
>
> Nobody is asking for a curtailing of anything except for poor operating
> practice. Many PSK QSOs were QRM'd to the point of making communications
> impossible last night, and I don't believe for a minute that the PSK
> activity was not visible to the FT8 users. There is no excuse for anyone
> on any mode to spoil the fun of others, and yet it's happening daily. I
> agree that direction and guidance is needed, but I'm not so sure I agree
> with the ability to self-regulate; we all know that the rules go out the
> window when DX shows up. If the shoe were on the other foot and some other
> mode were causing interference to your mode-of-choice, I have to think
> you'd be upset too. I don't know what sort of guidance or discussion about
> being good neighbors is occurring on other email reflectors, but I hope
> there is active discussion about the problem.
>
> As I stated in another email, PSK is alive and well and I believe it is
> underreported by PSKReporter, based on observations of my own activity.
>
> With regard to a crisis, all I can tell you is that the PSK community is,
> for lack of a better word, pissed about the intrusion. For the most part,
> we stick to about 1500 Hz in each band, but every time there is a digital
> contest, everyone creeps down to that segment. But at least the contests
> were short-lived and predictable. FT8 shows up with total randomness, but
> alarming regularity. I supposed in reality there isn't a thing we PSKers
> can do about it and if FT8 wants to march over the top of us, you can
> certainly do it - but I'd really like to think it won't come to that.
>
> Despite my negative feelings towards the way the mode is being utilized
> now, I am NOT anti-FT8 (or anti any-mode), but I DO believe that what we're
> seeing now is extremely poor operating practice and it needs to be reigned
> in. Now, I'm going to fade back into the noise and see what the bands look
> like this evening after 2200 or so with great hope that sanity and civility
> have been restored.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike
> WM4B
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:55 AM, *[email protected]*wrote:
>
> I don’t think it’s fair to blame the developers, Mike, or ask them to
> resolve this – at least, not without help from the wider ham community.
> They gave us the mode but we are the users – the tools are in our hands now
> so we’re all part of this.
>
> Do you or anyone else have any specific or even general suggestions on how
> to take this forward? What are we hoping to achieve or avoid? What are our
> priorities and timescales?
>
> Despite the emotive words, I am still not convinced there is a crisis
> right now, nor is there necessarily one brewing. I would be very reluctant
> to curtail the creativity and innovation that has clearly sparked the
> imaginations of a majority of active HF DXers. I’m not arguing for total
> anarchy, just some restraint over how we set and adjust the rules of the
> game, and recognition that the situation is evolving. With a bit of
> direction and guidance maybe, I believe we have the capacity, as a
> community, to self-regulate and reach a pragmatic consensus, just as we
> have done in the past.
>
> 73,
>
> Gary ZL2iFB
>
>
>
> From: Mike Besemer < *[email protected]*> Sent: Tuesday, 27 March 2018
> 1:59 p.m.
> To: 'WSJT software development' < *[email protected]. net*>
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] DXpedition Mode on 40 Meters?
>
>
> Yeah… saw those ground loops too. But I’ve seen them on PSK and other
> data modes, so I didn’t mention it; it’s not the fault of the mode.
>
>
> So… developers… how do you put the genie back in the bottle? There is
> some serious bad blood brewing.
>
>
> Mike
>
> WM4B
>
>
> From: James Shaver [mailto: *[email protected]*] Sent: Monday, March
> 26, 2018 8:54 PM
> To: 'WSJT software development'
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] DXpedition Mode on 40 Meters?
>
>
> It’s more than 7.071 and up – there’s some folks in there with wicked
> ground-loop hum and they’re causing issues all the way down to 7.067. To
> add to that, some folks saw the activity and have started calling CQ
> thinking that they’re seeing an expansion of activity down there – it’s a
> complete mess.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Besemer [mailto: *[email protected]*] Sent: Monday, March 26,
> 2018 8:45 PM
> To: WSJT software development
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] DXpedition Mode on 40 Meters?
>
>
> Wow… there had been so much good discussion here about avoiding
> interference to other modes, and then this happens. If nothing else, it’s
> extremely inconsiderate and the discussion on the PSK31 lists is not
> favorable for FT8. I wish the developers would take responsibility for the
> genie they’ve let out of the bottle and either find a way to fix it or get
> rid of it.
>
> The FT8 crowd would be upset if the shoe were on the other foot.
>
>
> Mike
>
> WM4B
>
>
> From:
> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2018 8:39 PM
>
> To: mwbesemer mwbesemer
>
> Subject: Re: [wsjt-devel] DXpedition Mode on 40 Meters?
>
>
> Yes he is running the DX mode
>
> Gd luck
>
> On 3/26/2018 7:38 PM, mwbesemer mwbesemer wrote:
>
> Everything from about 7.071 up is useless due to FT8 QRM from stations
> calling 7Q7EI. Is he running DXPedition Mode?
>
>
> Pity people don't listen before they transmit. If the FT8 crowd wonders
> why other modes hate them, this is the answer.
>
> Mike
>
> WM4B
>
>
>
>
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