Al and Chuck,

ALL LOGIC AND SCIENCE is based on ILLUSIONS and BELIEFS:  an ILLUSION of 
subject/object (observation),  an ILLUSION of time (separate sequential 
actions), and a BELIEF in cause & effect (an illusory relationship between 
separate sequential actions).   Without these there is no logic, and without 
logic there is no science.

The Buddhist doctrine of Dependent Origination is also an BELIEF based on the 
same illusory relationship between separate sequential actions.  Karma is a 
more complex illusion which is based on the belief of Dependent Origination, 
and then adds the concepts that the relationships can propagate qualities 
(good/bad, or some kind of quality), and  these qualities can be associated 
with the actor and even accumulate.

Have you had enough tea for today?  If so, wash your teacups!

Chuck said he’ll return to counting his breathes.  If so,  his teacup should be 
empty by now.

Al, cut up your Master Card!

…Bill!

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck 
Gierhart
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Al,

 

Again, I think you are right.

 

It is difficult for us not to wonder about these things, however, doing so 
serves no real purpose. 

 

Nothing is more futile than arguing matters of faith.

 

I’ll return to counting my breaths J

 

Chuck

 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike 
brown
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2008 9:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Dear Bill

 

Al,

Both these kinds of issues cannot be determined and require a certain amount of 
faith and belief (less so in science). This is why Buddha remained silent when 
asked metaphysical questions of this kind. Answering them makes no difference 
to human suffering and Buddhism, after all, is only for the purpose of ending 
suffering - not deciding whether the universe was created etc. In India, when 
Buddhism became more interested in discussing these kinds of issues it died. 
Mike.

----- Original Message ----
From: Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 6 July, 2008 6:57:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Dear Bill

From: Chuck Gierhart When you ask this question about a blade of grass, the
Pacific Ocean or a rock, no answer is possible. You can describe how these
things interact with their environment or the benefit we derive from them
but thatâ?Ts not the same as a purpose. To ask what purpose these things
have is a loaded question. The question itself implies that a supreme being
create them for a purpose.>

So you think that Zen is Atheism? That everything is a product of blind luck
and evolution? That one single cell amoeba kept evolving over billions of
years into incredibly complex strands of DNA for millions of completely
unconnected creatures?

Isn't Evolution an act of faith? Isn't the belief in no intelligent higher
power also a religion?

 

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