How does causality work?
Is it an illusion ? (Bill's question, or his statement)
>From a Theravada Buddhist point of view, karma (I regard it the same as 
>causality for the time being) is a universal rule, that leads a person to be 
>reborn according to the deeds he does in this life. But at the same time, the 
>'non-self' principle makes that reborn being not the same entity. So some may 
>say, 'who cares what results I will get in my next life? It is a third 
>person's problem.
If everything is illusion, what rules in the universe?

--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 9:53 PM


Not quite. What I'm saying is that consciousness and the material world are 
identical. Consciousness is observer dependent perspectives on the material 
world from the POV of particular observers and events. Each of these 
consciousnesses is all that exists for the particular observer (all is 
consciousness only). Our concept of a material world is simply a cognitive 
construct of our consciousness, however that construct seems consistent and 
sharable thus we may assume it has an independent existence beyond our 
particular consciousness though we of course can never actually confirm that 
because we can never step outside of consciousness.

Not easy to explain or perhaps understand.

To address your questions: Replace Karma with causality. Karma has moral 
implications that are unsubstantiated. Causality though does exist and provides 
the rules which make our conscious perspectives and material world view 
cognitive constructs consistent. Thus causality does govern what happens in the 
world of forms.

As to when we die, the answer is that when you die your consciousness stops and 
your body decays (my perspective) . On the other hand I can never experience 
death since death is the end of experience.

Hope that helps,

On Oct 11, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Thank you.
You seem to say that the world is nothing but universal consciousness. Material 
objects and all kinds of living beings are just manifestations (contents) of 
the universal consciousness. Maybe I am wrong, but that is an interesting 
philosophical discussion.
Whether or not it is relevant to zen, I would like to know the practical 
aspects of your theory:
-   Does karma work in the universal consciousness, or whatever you call it?
-   When we die, do we just merge into the universe and lose our individual 

--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 7:46 AM


Well not quite. Personal consciousness is associated with material beings and 
disappears with the dissolution of the material form. However if you read my 
paper http://EdgarLOwen. com/HardProblem. pdf you will see that my view is that 
everything, that is the entire material world, is in fact the same experiential 
'stuff' of consciousness that is the same 'stuff' of human consciousness just 
in a different form particular to the material it is associated with. I.e. a 
human has human type contents in this consciousness stuff and a molecule has 
molecule type contents of it. That's probably not very clearly stated but the 
idea is that the interaction of all matter with other matter amounts to 
matter's experience of matter which is what the causal process of reality that 
continually flows through the present moment with clock time is. That same flow 
is experienced as human consciousness by humans, and mouse consciousness by 
mice as the details, the contents
 of consciousness, depend on the different biological and cognitive structures 
of mice and men while the phenomenon of consciousness itself as opposed to its 
details is common to both mice and men, and in fact everything in the universe.

So the contents of consciousness will be different for each being and the 
contents are the forms that arise in consciousness itself which are illusion.. 
Whereas consciousness itself, that in which the contents of consciousness arise 
is the same for everything in the universe. It is simply the physical reality 
of the present moment. So tuning into the pure consciousness itself, devoid of 
its contents, is Zen, or satori since the content forms which are the veils of 
illusion are no longer present and do not distract from consciousness itself.

But of course the contents do persist in the material world and so the trick is 
to continually recognize these contents for what they are, contents of pure 
consciousness, ripples or disturbances in the field of consciousness itself, so 
that one doesn't get entangled in the individual forms but always sees them as 
contents of the underlying pure consciousness itself. The forms themselves have 
no real substance since they are just ripples or disturbances in what would be 
the perfect stillness of consciousness itself devoid of any forms or ripples.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

As to the OBE, I really haven't felt I had to explain it. It was just something 
that happened. In my view it is a fundamental mistake to think consciousness is 
located or centered in the physical body, since everything we see and 
experience is actually happening in our own head and the idea of an individual 
'self' is just a cognitive construct, so that cognitive construct can 
subjectively locate its concept of observer anywhere it wants, at least 
temporarily. In that view 'our' consciousness continually pervades everything 
that we experience to its furtherest boundaries. Since all that is experienced 
is consciousness, consciousness must then be antecedent to the division between 
self and not self.

Remember the furtherest boundaries of the horizon are simply our retinas inside 
our eyes, and the whole world exists in the nigredo of our brains (the black 
obsidian crystal ball which we wish to turn into a perfectly clear crystal ball 
brain - unconsciousness into consciousness) , but of course that means our eyes 
are the sky and our consciousness in our brains pervades the entire universe.

Thus the Zen adage: "Awaken the mind, while dwelling nowhere." Which means wake 
up and recognize that consciousness is not centered anywhere but everywhere and 
transcends the distinction between self and world.


On Oct 11, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Hi Edgar,
I keep an open mind. In your view, does consciousness just disappear, when we 
You seemed to say you had an OBE in Japan. How do you explain that based on 

--- On Sun, 12/10/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED] net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] consciousness
Date: Sunday, 12 October, 2008, 3:23 AM

Thanks Margie,

Your comments or questions would be welcome.

Much appreciated,

On Oct 11, 2008, at 9:55 AM, roloro1557 wrote:

Hi Edgar-

I am still reading HardProblem - I'm on page 10. So far it is
wonderful! :-)

Margie (roloro1557)

------------ --------- --------- --------- ---------
FROM: Over the hills and far away... . .
Don't be an observer of life. Be life. T'ao Shan
OldWomansZenChronic les.blogspot. com

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