I think your idea is the universe is only a global spirit, and nothing else.. 
The spirit designs and creates everything. We human beings are the most 
intelligent creatures the global spirit designs, because we believe we are real 
players in the illusory 'reality'. Eventually we all play into the hands of the 
global spirit, and be merged into it after we die. That is the ultimate.


--- On Tue, 4/11/08, Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

From: Edgar Owen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Is SATORI just a fairy tale?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 4 November, 2008, 9:49 PM


In spite of Bill and Anthony's retorts this is a very important and valid 
question, at least certainly as much so as any other question.

While it is true that Zen doesn't ask this question, the fact that it doesn't 
gives it no right to ask any other question. The question of God is certainly 
the ultimate koan!

Whether god exists or not depends first of all on how the term is defined. If 
we take the Christian or any other ancient religious definition then there is 
of course no evidence for his (their) existence and plenty of counter evidence. 
If such a god is postulated to exist that just begs the question of who created 
him. This understanding of god is from the childhood of humanity. Likewise the 
AI conception of a programmer god a la the Matrix and sci fi (which by the way 
I wrote about in a short story in the '60's about what I called 'Livies', that 
we all were living in an artificial reality so real it seemed like reality and 
how each cycle intelligent life would gradually construct virtual realities so 
convincing that they would ultimately become characters within them, etc. which 
is really what the human brain is doing in actuality - constructing an illusory 
reality in which we think we live - which is very close to Zen's world of 

On the other hand if we merely define God as the creative life/motive force of 
the universe then by definition god exists. It is very clear that the 
intelligence embedded in the structure and design of the universe and the DNA 
etc. is many orders of magnitude greater than human intelligence. Perhaps 
someday when we understand the functioning of DNA we will find encoded there 
the signature of the artist?

I have my own ideas on this and the ultimate fate of the universe....


On Nov 4, 2008, at 2:03 AM, Dave wrote:

Edgar Owen <> it does cast doubt on specifically human self 
consciousness after brain death.
There is a theory that even the illusion of the white light is the 
brain just trying to give the emotional human a last positive feeling 
of peace. All chemicals. We are just an electrical meat cell, and the 
question is, WHO CREATED THIS PROGRAM and the physical manifestation 
(body) which is way beyond the complexity of any realistic theory of 

We are programmed a certain way. Who programmed us? Why are we seeking 
God, enlightenment, the transcendence of the now and our physical 
limitations? ? What is it we are searching for? It is not something 
new, it is a memory of something we know already. 


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