JMJM, QUIT LURING ME OUT OF LURKING!  It's hard enough without such 
challenging posts as yours.

My comments/respones are embedded in your post below:

--- In, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> Hi, Having Trouble Lurking Bill,
Yes!  I plead guilty to the charge!
> I love strong statement...  I always enjoyed your posting.
What other type of posting about zen could you expect?  A wishy-washy 
posting?  Haven't you heard the zen saying:  When sitting, sit.  
When walking, walk.  Above all, don't wobble!
> I don't "know" whether karma has a position in zen or not. I don't 
> "know" where it belongs.  Do you?  :-)
Just THIS!
> I also don't "know" what zen is.   You have stated many times about 
> "true zen" as "True zen".  Is there one?  Or is zen just one, the 
> which includes everything - form, formless, all right and 
I'm not sure I ever used the term 'true zen', but in one of my weaker 
moments I may have.  If I did use that term, and what I do continue 
to assert is, that zen is not dependent on or a sub-set of Buddhism 
or any other religion or belief systems.  I personally THEORIZE (not 
assert) that zen may the the BASIS for Buddhism and most other 
religions, but zen is larger than all these - a superset if you want 
to call it that.
> That said however, I do like your statement that when there is no 
> nothing sticks.  Spiritually I agree.  However, Edgar may argue in 
> physical world, if I am hit by a car, it was not me?
Edgar does argue that, and very well.

If YOU are hit by a car, or YOU are hungry, or YOU get 
annoyed at someone's posting - where is that YOU that experiences all 
this?  Show me!
> Is there cause and effect in zen?  small cap zen? I love your 
> categorization and care in "your" dictionary.
Edgar and I have already contributed too much to global warming with 
all the bit flipping we've done to contruct a plethera of posts 
addressing this subject.  My position is zen (lower case 'z') is not 
concerned with karma or its de-spiritalized foundation, cause-and-
effect.  They're both moot vis-a-vis zen.  Just more maya to clear 
out of the way, more bullship to wade through.

In Zen Buddhism (upper case 'Z'), karma has a very important role, or 
so I assume.
> Happy Thanks Giving,
> JM
Happy Now,

> Bill Smart wrote:
> >
> > I'm having trouble lurking...
> >
> > Karma does not have a position in zen.
> >
> > Karma is a belief in a lot of religions, like Buddhism, Hinduism 
> > even Christianity - 'as you sow, so shall you reap', 'if 
you're 'bad'
> > you'll go to hell but if you're 'good' you'll go to heaven', 
> >
> > Maintain a clear mind and karma is not relevant. How can YOU 
> > accumulate and/or be affected by KARMA if there is no YOU?
> >
> > If however a clear mind is not maintained and there is a big fat 
> > waddling around out there like a big wad of spiritual Velcro, 
then who
> > knows what could stick to it? Maybe even karma!
> >
> > Clear Mind. Just THIS!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> >


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