I believe that most would say that Zen is a type of Buddhism like Vipassana or 
Pure Land. I know of no one else who makes a distinction between zen and Zen.


With that said, it’s probably best not to dwell on semantics and definitions. 
This is exactly what it is, regardless of the label applied to it.


Chuck – (Trying not to stare at the Buddha’s finger when he points J)


From: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mayka
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Zen] Position of Karma in Zen


With all my respect to you Bill but;

Thich Nhat Hanh is a Venerable Zen Buddhist Master who was borne with 
the zen spoon in his mouth. He is also one of the greates scholars 
of our time. But most important he is a person who have gained a 
very impresive profound understanding of zen practice. Yet, I have 
never heard him the kind of comparations you often make between 
buddhism and zen. The fact that you need to compare this so often 
rings a bell of a kind of insecurity there.

True that we don't like to talk about karma but there is no denial 
that Karma actually exists. 

a matter that you believe this or not but a matter that you 
experience it. If you can't experience this it only means that 
instead of being engage in the self you went to the other opposite 
extreme and got dangerously engage with the non self. However if you 
would go beyond of these pair of opposites then you'll see that both 
interbeing with each other and therefore karma exists whether you 
like it or not.


--- In <> , "Bill 
Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> JMJM, QUIT LURING ME OUT OF LURKING! It's hard enough without such 
> challenging posts as yours.
> My comments/respones are embedded in your post below:
> --- In <> , Jue 
> Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 
> <chan.jmjm@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Having Trouble Lurking Bill,
> >
> Yes! I plead guilty to the charge!
> > I love strong statement... I always enjoyed your posting.
> >
> What other type of posting about zen could you expect? A wishy-
> posting? Haven't you heard the zen saying: When sitting, sit. 
> When walking, walk. Above all, don't wobble!
> > I don't "know" whether karma has a position in zen or not. I 
> > "know" where it belongs. Do you? :-)
> >
> Just THIS!
> > I also don't "know" what zen is. You have stated many times 
> > "true zen" as "True zen". Is there one? Or is zen just one, the 
> ONE, 
> > which includes everything - form, formless, all right and 
> wrong......?
> >
> I'm not sure I ever used the term 'true zen', but in one of my 
> moments I may have. If I did use that term, and what I do continue 
> to assert is, that zen is not dependent on or a sub-set of Buddhism 
> or any other religion or belief systems. I personally THEORIZE 
> assert) that zen may the the BASIS for Buddhism and most other 
> religions, but zen is larger than all these - a superset if you 
> to call it that.
> > That said however, I do like your statement that when there is no 
> you, 
> > nothing sticks. Spiritually I agree. However, Edgar may argue 
> the 
> > physical world, if I am hit by a car, it was not me?
> >
> Edgar does argue that, and very well.
> If YOU are hit by a car, or YOU are hungry, or YOU get 
> annoyed at someone's posting - where is that YOU that experiences 
> this? Show me!
> > Is there cause and effect in zen? small cap zen? I love your 
> > categorization and care in "your" dictionary.
> >
> Edgar and I have already contributed too much to global warming 
> all the bit flipping we've done to contruct a plethera of posts 
> addressing this subject. My position is zen (lower case 'z') is 
> concerned with karma or its de-spiritalized foundation, cause-and-
> effect. They're both moot vis-a-vis zen. Just more maya to clear 
> out of the way, more bullship to wade through.
> In Zen Buddhism (upper case 'Z'), karma has a very important role, 
> so I assume.
> > Happy Thanks Giving,
> > JM
> > 
> Happy Now,
> ...Bill!
> > 
> > Bill Smart wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm having trouble lurking...
> > >
> > > Karma does not have a position in zen.
> > >
> > > Karma is a belief in a lot of religions, like Buddhism, 
> and
> > > even Christianity - 'as you sow, so shall you reap', 'if 
> you're 'bad'
> > > you'll go to hell but if you're 'good' you'll go to heaven', 
> etc...
> > >
> > > Maintain a clear mind and karma is not relevant. How can YOU 
> generate,
> > > accumulate and/or be affected by KARMA if there is no YOU?
> > >
> > > If however a clear mind is not maintained and there is a big 
> > > waddling around out there like a big wad of spiritual Velcro, 
> then who
> > > knows what could stick to it? Maybe even karma!
> > >
> > > Clear Mind. Just THIS!
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> > >
> > >
> >


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