Anthony,

In answering that student's question in the koan your 'no' is absolutely just 
as good as my 'whatever'.

I'm not an Asian language expert (although I do speak Thai), but Zhaozhou must 
have actually said 'wu' since he was Chinese.  Joju is ZhaoZhou's name rendered 
in Japanese, and he is reported to have said 'mu' since this was a retelling of 
the encounter in Japanese.  Thai's use 'mai' which means 'negative'.  It can 
mean no, it can mean not,  it can mean 'nothing'.

The whole koan stems from the 'fact' that Siddhartha Buddha is reported to have 
said 'all sentient being have Buddha Nature'.  JoJu's student then asked Joju:  
'Does a dog have a Buddha Nature?'  To which JoJu reportedly replied his now 
famous 'mu'.  Now that could have meant 'no', and since the student already 
knew Buddha said ALL SENTIENT beings have Buddha Nature, it set up a conundrum 
for him, an un-solvable puzzle - a koan.  Why does Buddha say one thing and 
Joju say something different?  BUT, in the absolutely sublime response Joju 
could have also meant 'who cares?', or 'moot', or 'go fish', or maybe today 
even 'fuck off'.  He could have meant anything to get the student to 
concentrate so hard on solving the unsolvable that his mind finally gives up 
and STOPS - No Mind - and that is KENSHO - an initial breakthrough.  That No 
Mind is meeting Joju and all the other Buddhas and teachers face-to-face.  That 
No Mind is Buddha Nature.

...Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:34 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?

Bill,
 
I don't see a difference between my 'no' and your 'whatever'. Both mean 'stop 
bullshiting about Buddha nature'. Next time you meet Zhaozhou zen master, give 
him a better carrot.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 21/12/08, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 11:32 AM
I have met Zhaozhou face-to-face. His response 'mu' to his student's question 
on whether a dog (or duck or maggot) did not mean 'no'. In our vernacular it 
could be translated as 'whatever', or 'moot'. If you're spending all your time 
or posts speculating about Buddha Nature you're barking up the wrong tree, or 
swimming in the wrong pond, or gnawing on the wrong carrion.

Back in Thailand and lurking no more...Bill!

From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf 
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:42 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Nature?

Edgar,

Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha nature (your word 
'innate' is correct). On the other, you should not attach to that idea. That is 
why Bill Smart's great grand father Zhaozhou zen master says, 'no', when asked 
'does a dog have Buddha nature?'.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 19/12/08, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att. net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att. net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Ducks Have Buddha Nature?
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, 19 December, 2008, 11:56 PM
Anthony, 

It is nonsense to think that humans could convey Buddha nature on to anything 
at all by thinking about them. Buddha nature is innate in all things.

Your ignorant Zhaozhou master needs a duck to teach him about Buddha nature!

Edgar

On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:

Karin,

Ducks have Buddha nature when we have sympathy with them. When you think about 
them in general terms, they should have no Buddha nature. Otherwise, you would 
attach to them. That is a teaching from Zhaozhou zen master.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 16/12/08, Karin <tortillera77@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Karin <tortillera77@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Ducks Have Buddha Nature?
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 16 December, 2008, 4:55 PM
I work at a shopping mall and there is a canal nearby and there are 
lots of ducks in the area.. I feed them out of the back of the store 
sometimes, and they run towards me and I talk to them. That is fun. 

However, many people dislike the ducks because they poop a lot, and I 
have seen some people run them over with their cars when they are 
driving through the shopping center. They have contempt for the ducks 
and think that if the ducks are in the way of the car, it is OK to run 
over them. This is very sad to me. 

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