Edgar, I have no confusion about this koan. Mu is just mu. Mu is Just
THIS! If you have never worked on this koan however then you are
not fully
appreciative of the subtlety of JoJu's teaching technique.
Of course the koan happened between a teacher and a student with
whom he was
thoroughly intimate. Joju undoubtedly instinctively invoked the
response
tailored specifically to that particular student. The subtlety of
this koan
is that it can also address a wide range of beginning students, and
that is
why it is usually used in the both Soto and Renzai as the first koan.
By the way, when I was given this koan over 40 years ago I was
instructed to
'SHOW me Joju's Mu', not 'WHAT is Joju's Mu' as I've seen it
represented in
some of the books of koans.
...Bill!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf
Of Edgar Owen
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 8:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nature?
Bill and Anthony,
You guys' confusion stems from your lack of understanding that Mu =
Buddha
nature. Joju was simply invoking Buddha nature in response to the
question
of whether a dog has it.
Edgar
On Dec 21, 2008, at 5:19 AM, <[email protected]> wrote:
Anthony,
In answering that student's question in the koan your 'no' is
absolutely
just as good as my 'whatever'.
I'm not an Asian language expert (although I do speak Thai), but
Zhaozhou
must have actually said 'wu' since he was Chinese. Joju is
ZhaoZhou's name
rendered in Japanese, and he is reported to have said 'mu' since
this was a
retelling of the encounter in Japanese. Thai's use 'mai' which means
'negative'. It can mean no, it can mean not, it can mean 'nothing'.
The whole koan stems from the 'fact' that Siddhartha Buddha is
reported to
have said 'all sentient being have Buddha Nature'. JoJu's student
then asked
Joju: 'Does a dog have a Buddha Nature?' To which JoJu reportedly
replied
his now famous 'mu'. Now that could have meant 'no', and since the
student
already knew Buddha said ALL SENTIENT beings have Buddha Nature, it
set up a
conundrum for him, an un-solvable puzzle - a koan. Why does Buddha
say one
thing and Joju say something different? BUT, in the absolutely sublime
response Joju could have also meant 'who cares?', or 'moot', or 'go
fish',
or maybe today even 'fuck off'. He could have meant anything to get
the
student to concentrate so hard on solving the unsolvable that his mind
finally gives up and STOPS - No Mind - and that is KENSHO - an initial
breakthrough. That No Mind is meeting Joju and all the other
Buddhas and
teachers face-to-face. That No Mind is Buddha Nature.
...Bill!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf
Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 4:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?
Bill,
I don't see a difference between my 'no' and your 'whatever'. Both
mean
'stop bullshiting about Buddha nature'. Next time you meet Zhaozhou
zen
master, give him a better carrot.
Anthony
--- On Sun, 21/12/08, [email protected] <[email protected]>
wrote:
From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Nature?
To: [email protected]
Date: Sunday, 21 December, 2008, 11:32 AM
I have met Zhaozhou face-to-face. His response 'mu' to his student's
question on whether a dog (or duck or maggot) did not mean 'no'. In
our
vernacular it could be translated as 'whatever', or 'moot'. If you're
spending all your time or posts speculating about Buddha Nature you're
barking up the wrong tree, or swimming in the wrong pond, or
gnawing on the
wrong carrion.
Back in Thailand and lurking no more...Bill!
From: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogrou
ps.com] On
Behalf Of Anthony Wu
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:42 PM
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Zen] Nature?
Edgar,
Your missed the point. On the one hand, everything has Buddha
nature (your
word 'innate' is correct). On the other, you should not attach to
that idea.
That is why Bill Smart's great grand father Zhaozhou zen master
says, 'no',
when asked 'does a dog have Buddha nature?'.
Anthony
--- On Fri, 19/12/08, Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att. net> wrote:
From: Edgar Owen <edgaro...@att. net>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Ducks Have Buddha Nature?
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Friday, 19 December, 2008, 11:56 PM
Anthony,
It is nonsense to think that humans could convey Buddha nature on to
anything at all by thinking about them. Buddha nature is innate in all
things.
Your ignorant Zhaozhou master needs a duck to teach him about
Buddha nature!
Edgar
On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
Karin,
Ducks have Buddha nature when we have sympathy with them. When you
think
about them in general terms, they should have no Buddha nature.
Otherwise,
you would attach to them. That is a teaching from Zhaozhou zen master.
Anthony
--- On Tue, 16/12/08, Karin <tortillera77@ yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Karin <tortillera77@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Ducks Have Buddha Nature?
To: zen_fo...@yahoogrou ps.com
Date: Tuesday, 16 December, 2008, 4:55 PM
I work at a shopping mall and there is a canal nearby and there are
lots of ducks in the area.. I feed them out of the back of the store
sometimes, and they run towards me and I talk to them. That is fun.
However, many people dislike the ducks because they poop a lot, and I
have seen some people run them over with their cars when they are
driving through the shopping center. They have contempt for the ducks
and think that if the ducks are in the way of the car, it is OK to run
over them. This is very sad to me.
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