--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote: > > DP, > > Thanks for the reply. It's probably difficult, if not impossible, to keep > religion out of politics in the sense that politicians have personal beliefs > that may impact on their personal decision making. However, we in the west > mostly live in secular societies and overt religious decisions should stay > the > hell (excuse the pun) out of legislative decisions that affect all citizens.
Well, I don't know how far that can go. People talk about taxing churches where the ministers make overt political statements. Couldn't that have been used to suppress Martin Luther King? As well, on the international scene and I think of Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, whose faith has sustained them. Dennis Kucinich is another example of someone whose faith (Roman Catholic with a bit of existentialism thrown in) has resulted in progressive politics. the abolitionists were often religious (Quakers, etc). I object to your subject line, because in my (admittedly short) years as a church goer I have never, ever been told not to think. Quite the opposite, in fact. And it's not like I go to a small "new age Christian" church, but one of the mainline churches in Canada. > > > I'd also argue with you over the point about atheists knowing the answers to > aÂ religious survey but not understanding the intricacies of theology. If > someone > doesn't know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount they sure as hell (there I > go > again) don't understand the "intricacies" of theology.Â > > Mike. > I'm more offended, to be honest, but putting "intricacies" in quotes. Theology is quite a large and varied field. and that wasn't my point. My point was that these people were gloating over "knowing more" (in fact, an average of 4 questions more) than religious people, as if they had understood all of religion better than all those who practise it. These were questions like "what religion was Mother Theresa," and while it's shocking that many people didn't know that, in terms of religion it's the equivalent of "what year did Columbus sail" is to history. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: DP <wookielife...@...> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 23:16:46 > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego > > Â > > Well, there are ways that politics and religion/spirituality intersect that > are > (for me) fruitful and interesting. The debate over Obama's old minister, for > example, could have led to a mainstream introduction to Liberation Theology. > Or > we could talk about "Creation Care," the Evangelical environmental movement. > Instead, there are constant threads about keeping religion out of politics, > and > how atheists are smarter, more moral and more compassionate than religious > people. The latest has been about how atheists did better than religiouis > people > on a quiz about religion. I thought the quiz was superficial, and that just > because the atheists knew the answers they didn't know the intricacies of > theology. Of course, I was ridiculed for even arguing that theology was > complex. > > So yes, some hurt feelings and envy over the people who have "the truth." but > also frustration because I think that it's our emphasis on materialism (in > all > senses of the word) that causes a lot of the world's problems. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Hi DP, > > > > Could you elaborate on this a bit more: "As well, I am frustrated that the > > section of the political forum dedicated to religion is dominated by the > > atheists." > > > > Thanks, > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: DP <wookielifeday@> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Fri, 1 October, 2010 7:58:28 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] More about arguments and ego > > > > ÃÂ > > I appreciate your comments, and your story. That is strange, and yet not > > uncommon from what I've heard. OTOH, it's a valuable metaphor for how we > > experience the world. We ultimately really don't know. And perhaps what I > > feel > > > is envy over their illusion of certainty (which they definitely present) > > > > And yet another part of it is that I feel that some of the issues in the > > world > > > (this is a political forum that I'm talking about) need a spiritual outlook > > as > > > well as a real world, material component. Certainly the idea of "there is > > nothing more to this world, and when you die that's it" seems to counter > > any > > sense of hope for the future, at least in my opinion. > > > > As well, I am frustrated that the section of the political forum dedicated > > to > > religion is dominated by the atheists. > > > > I guess if I *was* more secure in my beliefs I wouldn't let it bother me. > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> wrote: > > > > > > *bows to all* > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but after reading DP's posts on > >this, > > > > >iÃâÃÂ decided to share an experience i am having right now.. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > To begin, I was struck when youÃâÃÂ wrote that what really bothers > > > you is > >that > > > > >people attack you aboutÃâÃÂ what the "truth" is when it comes to > > >religion.ÃâÃÂ > >I > > > > >have said before here that, in my view, there really is no such thing as > > >"the" > > > > >truth or even "a" truth.ÃâÃÂ Its simply one's perception of it--beit > > >ÃâÃÂ a > >person, > > > > >idea, theologyÃâÃÂ or event.ÃâÃÂ The need to be right or somehow > > >prove that > >one > > > > >person's perception is correct and therefore, another's is wrong, is at > >theÃâÃÂ > > > > >heart of our societal and global conflicts. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > I think most of that is ego-driven, but to pretend or deny that humans > > > don't > > > >have egos is equally foolish.ÃâÃÂ Its okay to have opinions, beliefs, > > >values > >and > > > > >moral constructs.ÃâÃÂ ÃâÃÂ I think the danger of egoÃâÃÂ in > > >this is when one > >insists > > > > >their viewiint is the only correct one.ÃâÃÂ > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > IÃâÃÂ agree with Chris-- great wisdom there when he suggests that > > > when you do > >not > > > > >respond to some flaming post or insult or complaint, you actually > > >demonstrate > > > >greater emotional maturity, and they are aware you maintain your views, > > >but > >are > > > > >now moving on to the more important matters of your real life. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > I also agree with Bill.ÃâÃÂ Such mattersÃâÃÂ cannot be analized > > > in some > >logical > > > > >frame.ÃâÃÂ If you have faith-- thenÃâÃÂ logic has little to do > > >with it, and > > >perhapsÃâÃÂ useÃâÃÂ yourÃâÃÂ faith that perhaps your > > >message will resonate > >somehow via > > > > >less tangible means. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > Now, as I am now facing a problem that started with internet discussion, > > > but > > > >has now become a real life threat, IÃâÃÂ must caution others to > > >beware those > > >on-line who indeed may have psychiatric buttons you do not want to inflame. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > The man I've written about here who claims a lifetime of trauma , abuse, > > >tragedy and drama is at it again. ÃâÃÂ After calmly making it clear > > >to him > >that I > > > > >will no longer be a part of his self-created dramas, but wishÃâÃÂ him > > >well-- > >the > > > > >followingÃâÃÂ events have unfolded.. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > I received an e-mail from a man claiming to be an ordained minister, > > > ÃâÃÂ and > > > >friend of this man.ÃâÃÂ Telling me that ****ÃâÃÂ was in a > > >serious car > >accidentÃâÃÂ and > > > > >has been taken to a local hospital..ÃâÃÂ Stating thatÃâÃÂ the > > >eventÃâÃÂ > >details were > > > > >still unclear, but reassuring me this man is alive.ÃâÃÂ Etc., > > >etc..ÃâÃÂ He > >offers his > > > > >e-mail if I have questions or concers.. as if I must certainly beÃâÃÂ > >anxiouslyÃâÃÂ > > > > >awaiting any information on this tragic event.ÃâÃÂ ÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > > > > Certain that this is more of the same IÃâÃÂ do not reply or > > > respond.ÃâÃÂ For > >people > > > > >with this type ofÃâÃÂ psychological disorder which is to a large > > >degreeÃâÃÂ > > >attention-seeking,ÃâÃÂ grandiose ideation, and other > > >symtoms.ÃâÃÂ There is a > >bit of > > > > >narcissisism, but his whole personality is more complex, and best left to > > >be > > >diagnosed by medical professionals. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > But I do know the worst thing you can do to such a person is ignore > > > them.ÃâÃÂ > > > > >Though it is the only appropriate and sane respomseÃâÃÂ or > > >treatment.ÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > I received a second e-mail a day later stating that the car was totally > > >destroyed, andÃâÃÂ he had retrieved the personal belongings (and cell > >phone)ÃâÃÂ of > > > > >our "friend", and encouraged me tio call him with support. He is being > > >transferred to another hospital.ÃâÃÂ ÃâÃÂ Reminding me to keep > > >jim in ourÃâÃÂ > >heart and > > > > >prayers. And soÃâÃÂ and so on. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > Again, I do not respond, and suspect thatÃâÃÂ the person writing the > > > e-mails > >is > > > > >indeedÃâÃÂ my "friend" himself. > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > This morning, i received a third e-mail from this minister friend of the > >man.ÃâÃÂ > > > > >Starting out with telling me that the man in the hospital had > > >toldÃâÃÂ him a > >bit > > > > >of what i said to him.. and could not believe how i could be so horrible > > >to > >such > > > > >a wonderful, decent, giving manÃâÃÂ Etc., Etc.ÃâÃÂ It escalated > > >into a temper > > > >tantrum on-line with capitalizedÃâÃÂ angry retorts and > > >profanity.ÃâÃÂ > >(Ministers > > > > >aren'tÃâÃÂ ÃâÃÂ what they used to be) *sigh* > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > At this point, I know I'm dealing with a very unbalanced individual who > > > is > > >indeed in psychic pain.ÃâÃÂ But this is out of my league. I care > > >deeply about > > > >prople and ache for every child on the globe.ÃâÃÂ Not knowingÃâÃÂ > > >me, its > >hardÃâÃÂ for > > > > >anyone here to knowÃâÃÂ myÃâÃÂ realÃâÃÂ heart orÃâÃÂ > > >values. I am not being > >cruel,ÃâÃÂ I am > > > > >doingÃâÃÂ the right thing for him and myself.ÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > This isÃâÃÂ hard on two levels.ÃâÃÂ First, thisÃâÃÂ man is > > > much "sicker" > >thanÃâÃÂ I > > > > >realized, and I am personally afraid.ÃâÃÂ He has my address.ÃâÃÂ > > >I have > >blocked his > > > > >numbers from my phones, and will keep all e-mails in a folder for > >evidence.ÃâÃÂ > > > > >But this man does own firearms, is emotionally unstable andÃâÃÂ I got > > >into this > > > > >mess by just trying to be a friendÃâÃÂ at an interfaith workshop and > >discussion > > > > >group.ÃâÃÂ > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > It is times like this thatÃâÃÂ having a family of attorneys is > > > comforting. I > >have > > > > >contacted friends who are MD's and a psychiatrist, and explained the > >events.ÃâÃÂ I > > > > >just want to be left alone, and let the medical personnel where he is sort > >this > > > > >out.ÃâÃÂ > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > BUT~~ÃâÃÂ what if its all a lie? If he is seeing all these > > > doctors,ÃâÃÂ they > >are > > > > >going to pick upÃâÃÂ onÃâÃÂ this.ÃâÃÂ But if he is just a > > >neurotic man behind a > >computer > > > > >screen, I have reason to fear. > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > My point is-- sheezus--ÃâÃÂ take a breath.ÃâÃÂ Stand by your > > > convictions if > >its > > > > >important to you.ÃâÃÂ Let go.ÃâÃÂ The other option is surrender > > >to listening > >to > > > > >others views with a softened heart.ÃâÃÂ We all have the right to have > > >our on > > >viewpoint, so long as it does not hurt self or others. Or maybe get a new > > >hobby:) > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > KristyÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > --- On Thu, 9/30/10, DP <wookielifeday@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: DP <wookielifeday@> > > > Subject: [Zen] More about arguments and ego > > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 12:51 PM > > > > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ > > > > > > > > > > > > I've thought some more about my problrm with getting into arguments on > > > the > > >internet. I think that the internet has fueled a certain type of ugliness > > >in > > >arguments, with its tendency towards short comments that snipe at > > >miniscule > > >errors in one's posts. I want to walk away, and yet I hate the idea of the > > >bullies winning the argument. > > > > > > I find that in religious discussions the "internet atheists" (a specific > > > term > > > > >for these type of arguers, not all atheists) tend to crowd out people who > > >want > > > > >to sincerely discuss religion on particular forums, so I get frustrated. > > > > > > > > > But here's where the ego comes in. Obviously, there is ego involved in > >winning > > > > >an argument, but there is also some ego in leaving. I feel like I'm saying > >"i'm > > > > >taking my ball and going home." > > > > > > As well, i'm very insecure about my beliefs, and I feel like I'm somehow > > > not > > > >worthy of my arguments. How does insecurity relate to ego, or is that a > > >completely different question? > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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