Bill, Mike and all: Would like to point it out that these experiences you and Mike gave description are not visualisations but a kind of having a dream while awake. I call visualisations things such as description given through guided meditations by TNH in a previous post to Steve. A visualisation has a purpose of healing and transformation. Having a dream while awake is something that comes up out of the blue. Mayka --- On Wed, 13/4/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 13 April, 2011, 2:53 Mike, That was quite an experience! Thanks for sharing it with us. I haven't had many visual sensations when sitting, and none certainly as vivid as the one you have described. The most intense one I had was just one day prior to my kensho while working on the Mu koan. I had just left dokusan (private interview) with the roshi and been 'rung out' (dismissed with the bell) again while trying to satisfy his demand to 'Bring me Mu!'. It was a very active and loud interview and I left with a lot of disapointment. The head monk followed me out of the dokusan room and spoke with me privately in the hallway. He told me I was very close but needed to take a 'break' for a while. He advised me to just sit (clear mind) for one or 2 sitting sessions (about 40 minutes long) too let everything just settle down. (At that time I couldn't really sit 'clear mind' and he knew that, but I could approach that state and calm myself down. I proceeded to do that and in the second session I had a visualization/hallucination that I and the entire zendo (sitting room) and everyone in it was suspended in a thick, viscuous golden light - I could desribe it as being like honey. It was very beautiful and soothing and I sat clear through the next kinhin (walking meditation) interval (10 minutes) and clear through the next sitting session (40 minutes). I couldn't wait to get back into dokusan with the roshi to tell him about this, but when I did and described it he just smiled and told me that was maya (illusion), then once again sternly demanded "Bring me MU!" and promptly rang the bell signalling the end of the interview. I experienced kensho the next morning and was finally able to 'bring him Mu'. The roshi, head monk and I all cried for about 5 minutes before I was ushered out the room by the head monk and back to the zendo - no bell this time. That was my most memorable experience of visualizations. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > Actually, it's difficult to find a place where to begin. If you remember, I > recently wrote about an experience that was responsible for me discovering > Zen. > Just to recap, I had a very lucid and long-lasting kensho followed by another > long-lasting period of intense bliss and kundalini type phenonema. Of course, > I > wasn't concerned with the latter experience so much and intuitively grasped > the > importance of the insight gained thru kensho (hence falling into Zen and not > kundalini or mysticism etc). I've had a number of such experiences (both > kinds) > since, but this weekend was quite different altogether. The first day of the > retreat was rather so-so as I couldn't quite get into the 'groove' and I was > also missing my girlfriend quite acutely: being 'in the moment' was hell as > it > made me even more aware of the separation (please don't anyone tell me what I > should or shouldn't do - I know full well what was happening). Anyway, from > about midday until lights out, I was aware of a kind of 'fluttering' in my > solar > plexus area (which I put down to maybe being a mild emotional reaction to > being > separated from my girlfriend). The morning of the second day everything > changed. > I could sit very comfortably and found myself going into samadhi > effortlessly. > The fluttering in the solar plexus had now taken on a yellowish-green colour > in > my mind's eye and seemed to be rotating. Then after about 6 or 7 hours > meditating (remember that there are 11 hours of meditating a day on a > Vipassana > retreat) my heart stopped (as an actual fact, I don't know), my breathing was > suspended (I really thought for a split second I was going to die right there > on > the cushion!) and an explosion of green and yellow filled my chest and shot > up > my throat and exploded in a white firework that filled my head cavity. At the > same time my body/mind felt like it was vibrating like it was a struck gong. > All > pain and discomfort vanished (I'd been sitting motionless for almost an hour > when this occured) and an intense bliss took over. > > > Now, I've had many experiences on the cushion that could easily be put down > to > visual/audial hallucinations from meditating, but this was quite different > because I've never had much regard for things like chi and chakras before. > After > doing a little bit of research since I got home I've discovered that the > solar > plexus chakra is indeed symbolised as green and yellow and an irregular heart > rhythm is a precursor to its opening. Also, when it does open the event I > just > described (travelling up the spine and 'flowering' in the head - or 'ajna' > chakra) occurs. I've only discovered this information after the event. So, > what > to do about it? Part of me still has that 'just move on with it - it's just > more > makyo', but another part of me is thinking that it couldn't just be a > coincidence that I had the exact same sensations described in kundalini > literature. Well, if anyone's still reading this far, there you go. I'd love > to > hear some feedback about this (but please, I know about makyo and its > pitfalls). > Thanks. > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tue, 12 April, 2011 9:54:39 > Subject: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? > > > Mike, > > Share away! I enjoy hearing ALL accouns of experiences and insights. I'm a > big > boy and can navigate my way through the world of forms - like chakras and chi. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mayka, > > > > I'd love to share some of my experiences and insights from my recent > > Vipassana > > > retreat, but it involves things such as opened chakras and more kundalini > > happenings. Not very Zen, I'm afraid and could make poor old Bill! cough up > > his > > > > tea. : ) > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thu, 7 April, 2011 8:19:52 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? > > > > > > Mike: > > Would you be so kind to post and sharing something about whatever your > > experience will be on that retreat?. This kind of sharing while the energy > > of > >a > > > > retreat is still fresh is usually most helpful. > > > > And don't worry it will pass.... > > Mayka > > > > --- On Wed, 6/4/11, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? > > >To: [email protected] > > >Date: Wednesday, 6 April, 2011, 11:50 > > > > > > > > > > > >Steve, > > > > > >Thanks mate, I'm well and hope you are, too. I don't have a great deal of > > >time > > > > >to answer your previous post as I'm preparing for a 3 day Vipassana > > >retreat > > >starting tomorrow. Lot's of new doors to open and explore so I'm looking > >forward > > > > >to returning and carrying on this diescussion! Just one thing that jumped > > >out > >at > > > > >me that I'd like to ask you. You wrote below: > > > > > >>..if Ultimate Reality is without inherent qualities such as > > >>intentionality, > >and > > > > >>all phenomena are unreal illusion, thenhow did this unreal illusion ever > >arise > > > > >>at all? The Advaita Vedanta people give no answer to this. > > > > > >Ok. Can you tell what you agree/disagree with in the below quote from > > >Ramana > > >Maharshi (which also, btw, seems to point at a particular meaning of > > >'emptiness'). For me, I think that he is much like Buddha in that he > > >doesn't > > >concern himself about where the universe began or came from (i.e. > > >questions > > >about the metaphysical), but rather concerns himself about how we can free > > >ourselves from the illusion. > > > > > > > > >"“Without consciousness > > >Time and space do not exist; > > >They appear within Consciousness > > >But have no reality of their own. > > >It is like a screen on which > > >All this is cast as pictures and move > > >As in a cinema show. > > >The Absolute Consciousness > > >Alone is our real nature” > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: SteveW <eugnostos2000@> > > >To: [email protected] > > >Sent: Wed, 6 April, 2011 7:58:30 > > >Subject: [Zen] Re: Does Zen contain spirituality? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Steve, > > >> > > >> What you describe below sounds very much like the Buddhist doctrine of > >annicca. > > > > >> > > >> In Vipassana meditation, the discomfort caused by sitting for prolonged > >periods > > > > >> > > >> of time gives us the insight that pain is not one 'block' of unchanging > > >> experience, but is arising/passing in a kind of continous 'flicker' > > >> (pretty > > > >>much > > >> > > >> like a light bulb appears to be solid but isn't). Likewise, there is no > >solid > > > > > > >> reality called 'you' (or anything else, for that matter) for this to be > > >> happening to Is this something like what you mean by the below? > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> Hi Mike. I hope you are well today. Yes, of course it includes the > > >>understanding that all phenomena are impermanent. But one point I wished > > >>to > > >>convey was that the traditional Buddhist idea of The Twelvefold Chain of > > >>Dependant Origination may not be the final word. This is hinted at in the > > >>Tantric teachings (Anthony, I am NOT talking here about fucking my way to > > >>enlightenment!) as well as the Tathagatagarbha teachings. The traditional > > >>Twelvefold Chain teaching is based upThe obvious philosophical objection > > >>to > >this > > > > >>is that, if Ultimate Reality is without inherent qualities such as > > >>intentionality, and all phenomena are unreal illusion, then how did this > >unreal > > > > >>illusion ever arise at all? The Advaita Vedanta people give no answer to > >this.on > > > > >>the conventional idea of an unbroken chain of deterministic > > >>cause-and-effect. > >My > > > > >>experience in meditation convinced me that phenomena are really > > >>discontinuous > > > > >>because time-sequence itself is an illusion. Because all that really > > >>exists > >is > > > > >>Now, there can be no talk of this leading to that. But what about the > > >>relationship between Being and phenomena? In my opinion, the Advaita > > >>Vedanta > > > >>ALMOST get it right. But they seem to side with Being over Becoming, in > > >>much > >the > > > > >>same way as the ancient Greek philosopher Parminides. They discount > > >>phenomena > >as > > > > >>a mere appearance upon the face of static Being. For them, the world is > >unreal. > > > > >>Not only that, but they assert that the Self is NirGuna, without > > >>qualities. > > >>Also, if this were so, then theoretically, the moment that any one person > >became > > > > >>liberated in Moksha, the entire illusion would disappear. I agree with > > >>the > >Heart > > > > >>Sutra when it says that Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form. I also > > >>think > > > > >>that I get what the Mahaparanirvana Sutra means when it depicts the > > >>Buddha, > >on > > > > >>the final night before his Paranirvana, telling his monks that, although > > >>up > > >>until now they have meditated on Impermanence, No-Self and Suffering, > > >>they > >have > > > > >>deluded themselves and must see that the Buddha is really Permanence, > > >>Self > >and > > > > >>Purity. Of course, this one word, "Emptiness" has been no end of vexation > > >>for > > > > >>Buddhists. The Prasinga Madhyamaka define it as "Emptiness of Inherent > > >>Existence." The Yogacara define it as "Emptiness of Subject and Object". > > >>The > > > >>Tathagatagarbha (of which the Mahaparanirvana Sutra is an example) define > > >>it > >as > > > > >>"Emptiness of Other." You may be interested to know that there is a > > >>modern > > >>movement among the Theravada which seems to endorse the Tathagatagarbha > > >>view-point! The people in that movement are hermit-meditators who claim > > >>that > > > >>traditional Theravada teachings are mistaken because they are based upon > > >>the > > > >>talking of scholars and not the actual experience of meditators. I have > > >>meditated diligently my entire life, and I must say I agree with them. > > >>IMO, > >the > > > > >>traditional teachings of Dependant Origination, Impermanence, No-Self and > > >>Suffering apply only to the relative plane of understanding. IMO, The > > >>Buddha > > > >>transcends all such conceptualization. The Kashmir Shaivite people say > > >>that > >the > > > > >>world is certainly real in the way that a reflection is real. You know, > >without > > > > >>reflected phenomena, Being would not be aware of Being. Can you see this? > >Form > > > > >>is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form. Together they are the Mystery of What Is > > >>looking at What Is. What Is is What? If all things return to the One, to > > >>what > > > > >>does the One return? To all things. I bow to all things as to the One! > > >>IMO. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >
