Mayka, Well, all people possess Buddha Nature at all times, but most have not recognized or are aware of that fact yet. Beginners at zazen probably have not. In Japanese Zen Buddhist terminology the first realization of Buddha Nature is called 'kensho', and it usually takes some time before that happens.
...Bill! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote: > > Bill; > When a person sits down for first time experiencing zazen. The body and the > mind of the person is very busy. The person start to experience for first > time many things going on in the body and mind all at once.  The awareness > of the person is still cloudy as the person is not used to sit down and doing > nothing. So the person goes on for a time trying to get used to zazen, > paying more attention of calming the incommoded of the body. And as for the > mind is just as full of distractions that one that basically zazen sessions > are spent in taking care of all that. Does a beginner in zazen established > in buddha nature while sitting down?. > Mayka > > --- On Thu, 19/5/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > To: [email protected] > Date: Thursday, 19 May, 2011, 13:42 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > I always used to think 'mindfulness' was the same as 'Buddha Nature', but > after reading a lot of the definitions here I now think it is not. > > > > Your definition is the same, but most of the others are not. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, Daniel, JMJM and all: > > > Mike and myself wrote something like this: "Mindfulness is the technique > > one uses to experience buddha nature".àAnd there was this debate about: > > "Is mindfulness buddha nature?".àWhat do you have to say about this > > Daniel?.à> > > Mayka > > > > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/5/11, Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Thursday, 19 May, 2011, 12:40 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > > I've found very pleasant reading Daniel posting.àI envy the same in him > > as you your both art writing skills. And as for your question I think that > > Daniel was explaining mindfulness according to the way in his own tradition > > is transmited. My saying here is only my personal experience with > > mindfulness.àDaniel sayings may go in line with the way his tradition > > may transmit the teaching of mindfulness.àààHave to say that in > > the TNH tradition there is also the Scholar side of mindfulness.àSo far > > haven't gone much into it because I found all what I need in the very first > > key: "Mindfulness is to be aware of what is going on in body, mind, within > > and around ".ààAnd you won't ever believe how huge is the > > implications of just such a simple key!.à> > > > > > Mayka > > > > > > --- On Thu, 19/5/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > > > To: [email protected] > > > Date: Thursday, 19 May, 2011, 2:13 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayka, Thanks for your explanation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is this the same concept as others, specifically Beveverley, have of > > 'mindfulness'? > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > > > > > > The use of the tool called "mindfulness" is not buddha nature.Ãâà> > > But the energy, theÃâàexperience one hasÃâàout by using the > > > tool might beÃâàin Buddha Nature. ÃâàasÃâàmindfulness > > > generates a continuous energy of enhanced attention, awareness, > > > concentration, sensitivity, a general incremented enhancement of all > > > senses, .Ãâàthe form and the non form interact with each other in > > > such a way that they are not separated.ÃâàHere the experience the > > > form is in the non form and the non form is in the form gets clear. > > > .ÃâàA bit as saying the physical act of sitting down zazen is not > > > buddha nature, but what you experience while you are sitting down is > > > buddha nature (provided that while sitting down one only sits down and > > > nothing else).ÃâàIn both cases the form and the non form interact > > > with each other.ÃâàWithout the physical body, form, > > > Ãâàwouldn't be possible to experience the non > form.Ãâà> > > The physical body is the vehicle to experience the non form.ÃâàSo > > it's the action of > > > > > > > mindfulness.Ãâà> > > > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 8:52 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mayka, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our agreement does not surprise me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I've said before I very seldom use the term 'mindfulness', although > > > when others use it I assume they are talking about the same thing as I > > > call 'Buddha Mind' or 'direct experience of reality'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I was describing was 'Buddha Mind'. If that's the same as the term > > > 'mindfulness' is for you, then good! That does not surprise me either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill: > > > > > > > > I've just opened your posting given a response to Daniel posting about > > > > mindfulness and found that your way of understanding mindfulness is > > > > alike myself.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThere is only the concept of > > > > mindfulness as a meanings of given the map to produce the energy of > > > > mindfulness which is equalÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmeaning as to awareness. > > > > You're right and there are no distinctions or any dualism while > > > > practising mindfulness.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThis is > > > > also my personal experience too.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Mayka > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 18/5/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 18 May, 2011, 4:12 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel, ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMy comments are embedded below: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Three Western Myths About Mindfulness > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Three myths about mindfulness are frequently found western Theravada > > > > > > > > > circles. Beginning to intermediate students will often hold these > > > > > > > > > assumptions, sometimes even advanced students, having carried them > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > from new age culture or watered down versions of culturally popular > > > > > > > > > meditation practices. For many aspirants, these beliefs lie unseen > > > > > > > > > within the mind, lost in memory, and become unrecognized sources of > > > > > > > > > doubt and opinion regarding the practice of satipatthana vipassana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] You writing from aÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàperspective (satipatthana > > > > vipassana?) and assuming your understanding of it is 'correct' and that > > > > anyone having a different > > > > viewpointÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàhasÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàcreated a > > > > 'myth'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI don't know how you formed your > > > > perspective (teacher/student, reading, etc...), but that really doesn't > > > > matter right now.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIt's your perspective. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThis is not good and not bad, but I cannot comment > > > > from the same perspective you have.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI will comment > > > > from my perspective whichÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàhas been > > > > builtÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàup from my zen practice. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Choiceless Awareness is the "Purest" Practice of Mindfulness > > > > > > > > > Attention is a process entirely conditioned by sensory input and the > > > > > > > > > inner forces of desire, fear, restlessness and aversion, no matter > > > > > now [how] > > > > > > > > > hidden they may seem to be. To accept a myth of choiceless awareness > > > > > > > > > indicates that one has not grasped the truths associated with the > > > > > second > > > > > > > > > stage of vipassana insight, Knowledge of Conditionality. In reality > > > > > > > > > choiceless awareness is conditioned attention, whose conditioning is > > > > > > > > > goes unoticed. > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà'Choiceless Awareness' is > > > > zen.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàWhen you startÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàapplying > > > > discrimination (categorizing, judging, associating, censoring, > > > > rejecting, > > > > augmenting,ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàtranslating,ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàrationalizing, > > > > intellectualizing, etc...), in other words applying some kind > > > > ofÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàCHOICE onÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyour sensory > > > > experiences you have entered into the realm of dualism and > > > > illusion.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàYour choices are the illusions and the > > > > myths. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Allowing one's attention to float free in this way will make three > > > > > > > > > things particularly difficult: the development of concentration, > > > > > insight > > > > > > > > > into intention, and the development of effort and energy. When > > > > > practice > > > > > > > > > is mature in Knowledge of Equanimity, a kind of choiceless awareness > > > > > > > > > becomes possible, in that the illusion of the one who attends is now > > > > > > > > > absent, but at that point the mind is very developed and will not be > > > > > > > > > hindered or deluded by its own act of letting go. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàHere you seem to > > > > backtrack.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIn the paragraph above you indicate > > > > 'choiceless awareness' is a myth, but in this paragraph > > > > youÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàadmit in the absence of illusion (duality) it > > > > 'becomes possible'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàSo, is 'choiceless awareness' a > > > > myth or not?ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàOr, is it only a myth for some and not > > > > for others?ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàOr, ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis it a myth > > > > for some and not a myth whenÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàno one (self) exists to > > > > make choices? > > > > > > > > > The path along which our mind must evolve to come upon the experience > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the Unconditioned is quite narrow and precise. The ability to discover > > > > > > > > > this precise point of balance in the development of the mind's > > > > > > > > > faculties is what made the Buddha so unique. > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThere is nothing unique about Buddha > > > > (Guatama Siddhartha), or Buddha (the direct experience of reality we > > > > share with all senient beings).ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThe very fact of > > > > this is essential to zen (and to Buddhism).ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Otherwise you are elevating Buddha (Guatama Siddhartha) to some special > > > > state like Christianity has mistakenly elevated > > > > Jesus.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàBoth Guatama Siddhartha and Jesus are men, > > > > human beings just like you and me, and anything they have done or > > > > accomplished or realized can be done by us also. > > > > > > > > >There is no room in this > > > > > > > > > process for personal predilections or intellectual prejudice. To be > > > > > > > > > successful in this path we must train our attention so as to achieve > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > necessary balance and development of the faculties. There may indeed > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > more than one system of practice for achieving this, yet every such > > > > > > > > > successful system will be discovered to be balanced within itself. > > > > > > > > > However, even then, all practice methods must be regularly > > > > > > > > > "tweaked" to insure that progress remains on course. In the end, > > > > > > > > > it is not the method itself that achieves the goal, but the carefully > > > > > > > > > balanced evolution of the faculties that leads the mind to emergence. > > > > > > > > > This precision requires refined tuning, something that does not easily > > > > > > > > > evolve from free-floating awareness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI agree there is not one system of > > > > teaching.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàHowever, the practice is not to > > > > 'developÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàfaculities'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàYou > > > > already have everything you need.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThe practice is > > > > to dissolve the sense of dualism you have created > > > > whichÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàoccludes and interfers with your ability to be > > > > aware of direct > > > > sensoryÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàexperience.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàSo practice > > > > is a matter of discarding, not developing or building. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> Non-conceptual Awareness is the Goal of > > > > Mindfulness The conclusion to > > > > > > > > > this logic is that the silent witnessing mind is superior to the use > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > mental notation. For fuller explanation on the benefits of mental > > > > > > > > > notation, please refer to my dedicated chapter on this subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàNon-conceptual Awareness (aka Buddha > > > > Mind)ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis zen.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI don't know if it > > > > is a 'Goal of Mindfulness' or not.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàNon-conceptual > > > > Awareness is non-dualistic so is not subject to judgement (choices) > > > > such as 'superior'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMental notation (I think this > > > > is the same as I call discrimnation or using the discriminating mind) > > > > is not good and not bad.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIt is used to form > > > > dualistic concepts.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThe only caveat here is to be > > > > aware that these concepts, these 'mental notations' are not real but > > > > illusory. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Conception and preception are so intimately merged that we cannot > > > > > > > > > separate them, although we can come to distinguish them. Those who > > > > > > > > > pretend that awareness is non-conceptual are lost in their own > > > > > concepts > > > > > > > > > about practice and are far from seeing the present reality of their > > > > > > > > > minds. > > > > > > > > [Bill!] Both 'conception' and 'preception' pre-suppose a discriminating > > > > self.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàBoth are interpretations (post-processing) of > > > > sensory experience.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThey are illusions created by > > > > the discriminating mind which are tagged to experiences, and often > > > > obsure experience to the point of replacing them as percieved > > > > 'reality'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà'Conceptions' and 'preceptions' are part > > > > of the dualistic baggage of the discriminating mind that must be > > > > discarded (or at least suspended) to directly experience reality. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIn ordinary life, the closest we come to > > > > non-conceptual awareness > > > > > > > > > is in deep sleep, or when we see something in the distance that we do > > > > > > > > > not recognize, or when we encounter some new object completely unknown > > > > > > > > > and mysterious to us. However, even those last two examples, the mind > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > busily applying the closest approximate concepts to try and "figure > > > > > > > > > it out." > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThis is absolutely > > > > wrong.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThere is no awareness in dreamless sleep, > > > > and dreams are all illusions.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIntellectual activity > > > > as you describe above is just juggling illusions to try to find one > > > > characterize the sensory experience.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàNon-conceptual > > > > awareness happens when your teacher slaps your > > > > face.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIt is the awareness of that > > > > slapÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyou have BEFORE you think 'Pain!' or 'Bad'' or > > > > 'Embarassed!'. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAdditionally, yogis can experience non-conceptual > > > > awareness > > > > > > > > > during their practice in that tiny space between sensory impingement > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > mental recognition. Concepts are not the enemy. The enemy is that > > > > > > > > > confusion of mind that cannot distinguish between the two dimensions > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > conception and perception present in our moment-to-moment cognition. > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > is this confusion that hides the true nature of both, and not the > > > > > > > > > presence of concepts in the mind, which are inevitable and almost > > > > > > > > > constantly present. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàWe agree on something! - > > > > almost.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI'd remove 'yogis' from the first sentence > > > > above.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàIt's not just yogis that can experience > > > > this, it's everyone - all sentient beings.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàConcepts > > > > are not exactly the enemy,ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàit's the ATTACHMENT to > > > > concepts that is the 'enemy'.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàConcepts will arise > > > > and dissapear.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàThey are > > > > illusions.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAs long as you can recognize this, > > > > concepts are not the 'enemy'; but anything that gives rise to dualities > > > > (the most insiduous being the duality of self/other) is an 'enemy' to > > > > direct awareness (Buddha Mind). > > > > > > > > > Mindfulness Only Reveals What Is > > > > > > > > > A common mistake made by many dedicated practitioners of satipathana > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > other forms of mindfulness as found in various schools of Buddhism, is > > > > > > > > > to believe that mindfulness only reveals what is without altering how > > > > > > > > > things appear to consciousness. Mindfulness is not a passive process. > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > radically changes the way the mind experiences its reality. We cannot > > > > > > > > > claim therefore that we are merely allowing reality to reveal itself. > > > > > > > > > Because the perceptions, insights and states of consciousness that > > > > > arise > > > > > > > > > in practice are conditioned by the development of the five controlling > > > > > > > > > faculties, the jhana factors and the seven factors of enlightenment, > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > cannot say that we are accessing the reality of the five aggregates as > > > > > > > > > they really are in their own objective sphere or even as they would > > > > > > > > > appear in some hypothetical state of subjective super clarity. > > > > > > > > > Satipathana practice is definitely a system of mental development > > > > > > > > > engaging and affecting the mind in many ways and on many levels. All > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > can say is that mindfulness reveals reality as experienced by a mind > > > > > > > > > properly developed in such a way as to experience freedom from greed, > > > > > > > > > hatred and delusion. The absence of delusion means something very > > > > > > > > > precise: the successful oppositing of the four vipalasas, or > > > > > distortions > > > > > > > > > of subjective perception. There are the vipalasa that sees the > > > > > > > > > impermanent as permanent, the vipalasa that sees the dissatisfactory > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > satisfactory, the vipalasa that sees a self in what which is no-self, > > > > > > > > > and the vipalasa that sees the repulsive as delightful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!]ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI could not disagree > > > > more.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàI want to reiterate that I'm not saying your > > > > paragraph above is not correct in pointing outÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàwhat > > > > 'Mindfulness' is and is > > > > not.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMyÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthoughts > > > > below are not from a 'satipathana perspective.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > They are from my own zen practice perspective. > > > > > > > > Zen is awareness of only what is.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > AllÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàelse is illusory. ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAll > > > > intellectualizations (post-processing) are > > > > illusions.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàAnd I say again > > > > itÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis not the illusions that occlude Buddha > > > > Mind,ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàit is ATTACHMENT to illusions that occlude > > > > Buddha Mind and that must be dissoved or at least suspended. > > > > > > > > Clean your bowls! > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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