*** Possible Duplicate Message *** Anthony,
I do work with illusions all the time. I'm very good at it. I like to think however that I know they are illusions and don't confuse them with reality. It's like being a good chess player. You play on a finite, well-defined board moving chess pieces around that are assigned certain characteristics and have to obey certain rules. As long as you know that the chess match is just a game (an illusion) then you're okay. If you forget it's just a game and start to become attached to your chess pieces, like your queen or your rooks, you're going expereience suffering very quickly. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > Setting aside what Asanga thought two thousand years ago about 'mind', > whether it meaned discriminating or non-discriminating mind, I feel you are a > soloist in the field. >  > If you can work so smartly on computer software, then degrade the approach to > an unreal field, I am led to believe that you are working with illusions all > the time. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 9:38 AM > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > >  > Anthony, > > My points and perspectives are the exact opposite of "...mind only > philosophy, which says nothing is real except the mind.". My assertion is > that nothing in the mind (the discriminating mind) is real. Some of it is > pure fantasy and some of it may have a basis in reality but the concepts > created by the discriminating mind have are like Plato's 'shadows on the cave > wall' and worse. They have been filtered, augmented, categorized, judged, > etc..., all from an manufactured dualistic perspective. > > I make a living working on computer software by applying logic, because a > finite state (digital) computer is a manifestation of logic. I like to say a > computer works the way we like to THINK our brain works. It doesn't. A > computer is pure logic. We are a mixture of logic, emotion, whim, likes and > dislikes, etc... > > And, by the way my specific expertise in computers is in decision systems > which are an attempt to apply logic to chaos, to search out/deduce (invent > actually) patterns in chaos. You can view my CV/Resume to see more exactly > what I do at www.billsmart.bsc on the RESOURCE Page. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > Your point is along the line of the mind only philosophy, which says > > nothing is real except the mind. But whether or not the reality is chaos, > > no rules, no cause and effect and no flowing time sequence is another > > matter. Besides the existence of absolute reality (which I don't deny), you > > should consider the conventional wisdom. Otherwise, how do you make a > > living on computer software. Next time your customer calls on you, you can > > just go and throw their computer out of the window to complete the 'chaos'. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 3:42 PM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > You can 'deduce' all you want. That doesn't make your deductions real. They > > may be and they may not. I can see what I think are footprints in the snow > > and deduce they were made by Bigfoot. That doesn't make Bigfoot real - > > although I might realy, truly believe in his existence. > > > > Experience is real, nothing else. And that doesn't mean your perceptions of > > experience, that means just your raw, unfiltered experience. I call the > > awareness of that Buddha Nature. > > > > I do work in computers. They are a manifestation of logic and sequential > > time - at least finite state (digital) computers are. Reality is not a > > manifestation of logic or sequential time no matter how much humans would > > like it to be. Reality is a manisfestation of chaos - no patterns, no > > rules, no cause-and-effect, no flowing time sequence (past, present, > > future): Just THIS! Only NOW! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > I don't deny that you experience 'just this', so you think it is real. On > > > the other hand, you don't need to experience everything to deduce that > > > some of them are real. You believe jumping from a high building will > > > cause death. You don't have to experience it. If you did, you would have > > > to talk to us from heaven. That is what is called 'anti-science'. I > > > understand you do computer software services, when you sort out your > > > customer's problem, you believe it is real in the sense that the customer > > > will run it well. Do you have to run their system every minute? Since it > > > may go wrong although it is fine at the moment. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 5:47 PM > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony, > > > > > > I DO believe that jumping from a high building will cause death. I'm not > > > arguing that. What I am arguing is that it is a belief and not an > > > experience, therefore it is not real. It's only a belief - a concept. > > > > > > Just THIS! is experience and only an experience, therefore it is real. > > > The term 'Just THIS!' which I use to communicate and the concept of 'Just > > > THIS!' which you might form as a result of my communication are just > > > terms and concepts. They are not real. You may believe in them if you > > > wish but that doesn't make them real. If you experience 'Just THIS!' > > > (Buddha Nature) then you will know it is real. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > If jumping from a high building will get oneself killed is not real, I > > > > don't know what is real. Do you want to try it to find whether it is > > > > real? > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > 'Only just this is real is another of your belief system. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 9:00 AM > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > You're partially correct. > > > > > > > > That is part of my belief system, but it's not real - it's just a > > > > belief system. > > > > > > > > Only Just THIS! is real. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > So that is your belief system, and it is real. > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 4:52 PM > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking would I jump off a 9-story building, the answer is > > > > > no, and the reason is because I would be afraid of getting hurt or > > > > > killed. And yes, this is because of my belief in cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking about the raw experience of jumping off a 9-story > > > > > building I'd say the experience when you landed would be pretty > > > > > severe and your discriminating mind probably wouldn't have much of a > > > > > chance to create such determinations as 'gee, this hurts', or 'this > > > > > is bad', or 'I don't think I'll do that again!'. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > While I can see that your statement regarding Buddha Nature > > > > > > experience makes (zen) sense. You have to explain the cause and > > > > > > effect of a person jumping from a nine story building. Does it have > > > > > > a determinant effect? Is it 'raw'? > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@ > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 10:29 AM > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' if you have > > > > > > faith in the 'proof', have faith in the scientific method, have > > > > > > faith in logic and human concept of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > All belief systems are built on faith, and science is such a system. > > > > > > > > > > > > Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, un-categorized, > > > > > > un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha Nature) can be accpeted > > > > > > without faith. It is the only real thing you have. All else are > > > > > > concepts and beliefs - and are based on faith, not immediate, raw > > > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, dinosaurs, > > > > > > > supernova... can. Science and > > > > > > > historyÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàare > > > > > > > as much a belief system as the knowledge that jumping from a > > > > > > > nine story building without your psychic guru will get killed. > > > > > > > They are less of that than Yehowa asking you to kill the people > > > > > > > you conquered, and Buddha presenting a flower at the Vulture Peak. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a belief > > > > > > > system than our theory of matter, molecules, atoms, atomic > > > > > > > particles, hadrons, quarks, etc..ad infinitum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a belief system. > > > > > > > > Many times they run counter each other. For instance, a > > > > > > > > scientist was lecturing on our solar system of the earth > > > > > > > > rotating around the sun. A woman rose from seat and declared it > > > > > > > > nonsense. She said, 'the earth is flat, supported by a huge > > > > > > > > turtle.' 'Who supports the turtle?', she was asked. 'Oh, you > > > > > > > > stupid. It is supported by another turtle. And still anothor > > > > > > > > turtle. It is turtles all the way down.' That is a belief > > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Grasshopper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 'historical > > > > > > > > facts' and 'science' aren't based on a belief system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Belief systems and historical facts are different things. It > > > > > > > > > is OK to deify Buddha in sutras or any scriptures compiled in > > > > > > > > > the name of Buddha, as long as you bear that in mind. > > > > > > > > > However, historical facts such as the real life of Buddha and > > > > > > > > > that of the sixth Patriarch had better be maintained in as > > > > > > > > > close to history as possible. I consider the latter a > > > > > > > > > 'science'. > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony and ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of the Flower > > > > > > > > > Sermon as absolute fact. I just assume they are mythic to a > > > > > > > > > greater or lessor extent. Whether or not any of these things > > > > > > > > > written about in the Sutras, the Bible or any other Holy > > > > > > > > > Books actually happened is not important to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are containted in the > > > > > > > > > Sutras; the 'seed' of Zen is revealed in the Flower Sermon; > > > > > > > > > and the 'seed' of zen (Buddha Nature) already exists in every > > > > > > > > > sentient being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See: > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature > > > > > > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. Anyway, what > > > > > > > > > > matter to me is > > > > > > > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - and that's > > > > > > > > > > all that > > > > > > > > > > matters to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th century, while > > > > > > > > > > > the Buddha > > > > > > > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in the 2,000 > > > > > > > > > > year gap? Did > > > > > > > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to transmit the > > > > > > > > > > dharma? Or > > > > > > > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to spread the > > > > > > > > > > untold teaching? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
