[Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 01:34:23 -0700 

Neal,

I don't think anyone can 'prove you wrong' in believing that.  You can only 
find out for yourself.

You could get a hint about your theory by joing a Zen sangha and observing the 
teacher and his senior students.  If you like what you see then join them.  If 
you don't then continue on your way.

...Bill! 

--- In [email protected], Neal Oldham <neal.oldham@...> wrote:
>
> I worry a lot now that the whole point of "Zen"/"Buddhism" is to cure 
> neurosis by replacing it with psychosis.
> 
> And that Buddha nature is a construct to attain this end.
> 
> Who can prove me wrong?
> 
> On Nov 3, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Bill,
> >  
> > I believe it is the first time I have heard you say 'just this' can 
> > eliminate suffering. I am interested, whether it is called reality or 
> > illusion.
> >  
> > Anthony
> > 
> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 12:47 PM
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > 
> >  
> > Anthony,
> > 
> > Just THIS! is not just my awareness when sitting although it is the 
> > strongest and most consistent then. I've said many times before on this 
> > forum my continuing practice is to bring Buddha Nature up off the cushion 
> > and into my daily life. This is my practice.
> > 
> > You can redefine these terms however you want. You can call what I call 
> > illusions reality, and you can call what I call Buddha Nature an illusion. 
> > That is fine with me. If however you are uncomf'ortable with the suffering 
> > in your 'reality and would like to discover how to eliminate it, you could 
> > try sitting and enter into my 'illusory world' of Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill,
> > > Â 
> > > It looks like you spend most of your time on 'Illusions that are like a 
> > > contorted, make-believe add-on.', while you only have 'reality' that is 
> > > chaos or 'just this' when you sit zen. It probably can be redefined that 
> > > the former is reality, whereas the latter is just halucination.
> > > Â 
> > > anthony
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 5:26 PM
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Â  
> > > Anthony,
> > > 
> > > That is essentially the case but I'd need to change the wording somewhat 
> > > to make it more correct:
> > > 
> > > Reality and illusion do not operate in parallel. There is only reality. 
> > > Illusions are like a contorted, make-believe add-on.
> > > 
> > > Reality is not a system since a system has rules and forms. Chaos is a 
> > > good word for it - or emptiness.
> > > 
> > > Illusions can have rules and forms. I suppose there could be illusions 
> > > that don't, but the ones we usually have are illusions of duality and 
> > > logic so we can create them with rules and forms. You can conduct 
> > > business or play chess with an illusion of predictibility based on the 
> > > rules and forms you think apply, but these rules and forms are illusory, 
> > > which means they are ephemeral and impermanent, so the results are not 
> > > really predictive but only probabilities. In the best case the illusions 
> > > we create have rules and forms that approximate reality - like a 
> > > structured sequence of pixels approximate a curved line - a digital 
> > > representation of an analog shape.
> > > 
> > > Just think logic = digital and reality/chaos = analog. It's kind of like 
> > > that. 
> > > 
> > > ...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > >  
> > > > I am continuing my attempt to understand you. At this moment, I assume 
> > > > you have two systems in parallel:
> > > >  
> > > > 1. Real system with no rules or cause and effect. In other words, 
> > > > complete chaos.
> > > >  
> > > > 2. Illusions with rules and cause and effects, where you can conduct 
> > > > computer business with predictability and play chess to try to 
> > > > overwhelm your rival.
> > > >  
> > > > Is that right?
> > > >  
> > > > Anthony
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:19 PM
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >   
> > > > Anthony,
> > > > 
> > > > I do work with illusions all the time. I like to think however that I 
> > > > know they are illusions and don't confuse them with reality. I'm very 
> > > > good at it.
> > > > 
> > > > It's like being a good chess player. You play on a finite board moving 
> > > > chess pieces around that are assigned certain characteristics and have 
> > > > to obey certain rules. As long as you know that the chess match is just 
> > > > a game then you're okay. If you start to become attached to your chess 
> > > > pieces, like your queen or your rooks, you're going expereience 
> > > > sufferring very quickly.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > >  
> > > > > Setting aside what Asanga thought two thousand years ago about 
> > > > > 'mind', whether it meaned discriminating or non-discriminating mind, 
> > > > > I feel you are a soloist in the field.
> > > > >  
> > > > > If you can work so smartly on computer software, then degrade the 
> > > > > approach to an unreal field, I am led to believe that you are working 
> > > > > with illusions all the time.
> > > > >  
> > > > > Anthony
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 9:38 AM
> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >   
> > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > 
> > > > > My points and perspectives are the exact opposite of "...mind only 
> > > > > philosophy, which says nothing is real except the mind.". My 
> > > > > assertion is that nothing in the mind (the discriminating mind) is 
> > > > > real. Some of it is pure fantasy and some of it may have a basis in 
> > > > > reality but the concepts created by the discriminating mind have are 
> > > > > like Plato's 'shadows on the cave wall' and worse. They have been 
> > > > > filtered, augmented, categorized, judged, etc..., all from an 
> > > > > manufactured dualistic perspective.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I make a living working on computer software by applying logic, 
> > > > > because a finite state (digital) computer is a manifestation of 
> > > > > logic. I like to say a computer works the way we like to THINK our 
> > > > > brain works. It doesn't. A computer is pure logic. We are a mixture 
> > > > > of logic, emotion, whim, likes and dislikes, etc...
> > > > > 
> > > > > And, by the way my specific expertise in computers is in decision 
> > > > > systems which are an attempt to apply logic to chaos, to search 
> > > > > out/deduce (invent actually) patterns in chaos. You can view my 
> > > > > CV/Resume to see more exactly what I do at www.billsmart.bsc on the 
> > > > > RESOURCE Page.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > Your point is along the line of the mind only philosophy, which 
> > > > > > says nothing is real except the mind. But whether or not the 
> > > > > > reality is chaos, no rules, no cause and effect and no flowing time 
> > > > > > sequence is another matter. Besides the existence of absolute 
> > > > > > reality (which I don't deny), you should consider the conventional 
> > > > > > wisdom. Otherwise, how do you make a living on computer software. 
> > > > > > Next time your customer calls on you, you can just go and throw 
> > > > > > their computer out of the window to complete the 'chaos'.
> > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 3:42 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > You can 'deduce' all you want. That doesn't make your deductions 
> > > > > > real. They may be and they may not. I can see what I think are 
> > > > > > footprints in the snow and deduce they were made by Bigfoot. That 
> > > > > > doesn't make Bigfoot real - although I might realy, truly believe 
> > > > > > in his existence.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Experience is real, nothing else. And that doesn't mean your 
> > > > > > perceptions of experience, that means just your raw, unfiltered 
> > > > > > experience. I call the awareness of that Buddha Nature.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I do work in computers. They are a manifestation of logic and 
> > > > > > sequential time - at least finite state (digital) computers are. 
> > > > > > Reality is not a manifestation of logic or sequential time no 
> > > > > > matter how much humans would like it to be. Reality is a 
> > > > > > manisfestation of chaos - no patterns, no rules, no 
> > > > > > cause-and-effect, no flowing time sequence (past, present, future): 
> > > > > > Just THIS! Only NOW!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > I don't deny that you experience 'just this', so you think it is 
> > > > > > > real. On the other hand, you don't need to experience everything 
> > > > > > > to deduce that some of them are real. You believe jumping from a 
> > > > > > > high building will cause death. You don't have to experience it. 
> > > > > > > If you did, you would have to talk to us from heaven. That is 
> > > > > > > what is called 'anti-science'. I understand you do computer 
> > > > > > > software services, when you sort out your customer's problem, you 
> > > > > > > believe it is real in the sense that the customer will run it 
> > > > > > > well. Do you have to run their system every minute? Since it may 
> > > > > > > go wrong although it is fine at the moment.
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 5:47 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  
> > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I DO believe that jumping from a high building will cause death. 
> > > > > > > I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that it is a belief 
> > > > > > > and not an experience, therefore it is not real. It's only a 
> > > > > > > belief - a concept.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Just THIS! is experience and only an experience, therefore it is 
> > > > > > > real. The term 'Just THIS!' which I use to communicate and the 
> > > > > > > concept of 'Just THIS!' which you might form as a result of my 
> > > > > > > communication are just terms and concepts. They are not real. You 
> > > > > > > may believe in them if you wish but that doesn't make them real. 
> > > > > > > If you experience 'Just THIS!' (Buddha Nature) then you will know 
> > > > > > > it is real.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > If jumping from a high building will get oneself killed is not 
> > > > > > > > real, I don't know what is real. Do you want to try it to find 
> > > > > > > > whether it is real?
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > 'Only just this is real is another of your belief system.
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 9:00 AM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > You're partially correct.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > That is part of my belief system, but it's not real - it's just 
> > > > > > > > a belief system.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Only Just THIS! is real.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > So that is your belief system, and it is real.
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 4:52 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > If you're asking would I jump off a 9-story building, the 
> > > > > > > > > answer is no, and the reason is because I would be afraid of 
> > > > > > > > > getting hurt or killed. And yes, this is because of my belief 
> > > > > > > > > in cause-and-effect.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > If you're asking about the raw experience of jumping off a 
> > > > > > > > > 9-story building I'd say the experience when you landed would 
> > > > > > > > > be pretty severe and your discriminating mind probably 
> > > > > > > > > wouldn't have much of a chance to create such determinations 
> > > > > > > > > as 'gee, this hurts', or 'this is bad', or 'I don't think 
> > > > > > > > > I'll do that again!'.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > While I can see that your statement regarding Buddha Nature 
> > > > > > > > > > experience makes (zen) sense. You have to explain the cause 
> > > > > > > > > > and effect of a person jumping from a nine story building. 
> > > > > > > > > > Does it have a determinant effect? Is it 'raw'?
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 10:29 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' if 
> > > > > > > > > > you have faith in the 'proof', have faith in the scientific 
> > > > > > > > > > method, have faith in logic and human concept of 
> > > > > > > > > > cause-and-effect.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > All belief systems are built on faith, and science is such 
> > > > > > > > > > a system.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, 
> > > > > > > > > > un-categorized, un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha 
> > > > > > > > > > Nature) can be accpeted without faith. It is the only real 
> > > > > > > > > > thing you have. All else are concepts and beliefs - and are 
> > > > > > > > > > based on faith, not immediate, raw experience.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, 
> > > > > > > > > > > dinosaurs, supernova... can. Science and 
> > > > > > > > > > > historyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã †
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  are as much a belief system as the knowledge that 
> > > > > > > > > > > jumping from a nine story building
> > > without your psychic guru will get killed. They are less of that than 
> > > Yehowa asking you to kill the people you conquered, and Buddha presenting 
> > > a flower at the Vulture Peak.
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a 
> > > > > > > > > > > belief system than our theory of matter, molecules, 
> > > > > > > > > > > atoms, atomic particles, hadrons, quarks, etc..ad 
> > > > > > > > > > > infinitum?
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> 
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a belief 
> > > > > > > > > > > > system. Many times they run counter each other. For 
> > > > > > > > > > > > instance, a scientist was lecturing on our solar system 
> > > > > > > > > > > > of the earth rotating around the sun. A woman rose from 
> > > > > > > > > > > > seat and declared it nonsense. She said, 'the earth is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > flat, supported by a huge turtle.' 'Who supports the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > turtle?', she was asked. 'Oh, you stupid. It is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > supported by another turtle. And still anothor turtle. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > It is turtles all the way down.' That is a belief 
> > > > > > > > > > > > system.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢ 
> > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'à †'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
> > > Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Â 
> > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Grasshopper
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢ 
> > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'à †'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
> > > Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Â 
> > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >   
> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'historical facts' and 'science' aren't based on a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > belief system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
> > > ¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ' 
> > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã
> > > ¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Ã
> > >  †'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€à ‚ 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ
> > > ‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'
> > > >
> > > Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'à 
> > > ¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€Â  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
> > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Belief systems and historical facts are different 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > things. It is OK to deify Buddha in sutras or any 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > scriptures compiled in the name of Buddha, as long as 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > you bear that in mind. However, historical facts such 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > as the real life of Buddha and that of the sixth 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Patriarch had better be maintained in as close to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > history as possible. I consider the latter a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'science'.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
> > > ¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ' 
> > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã
> > > ¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Ã
> > >  †'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€à ‚ 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ
> > > ‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'
> > > >
> > > Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'à 
> > > ¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€Â  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
> > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
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> > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
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> > >  
> > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > >   
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony and ED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Flower Sermon as absolute fact. I just assume they 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are mythic to a greater or lessor extent. Whether or 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not any of these things written about in the Sutras, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the Bible or any other Holy Books actually happened 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is not important to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > containted in the Sutras; the 'seed' of Zen is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > revealed in the Flower Sermon; and the 'seed' of zen 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (Buddha Nature) already exists in every sentient 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > being.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <seacrofter001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. Anyway, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > what matter to me is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's all that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > matters to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > century, while the Buddha
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2,000 year gap? Did
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > transmit the dharma? Or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to spread 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the untold teaching?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>


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