Anthony, That is essentially the case but I'd need to change the wording somewhat to make it more correct:
Reality and illusion do not operate in parallel. There is only reality. Illusions are like a contorted, make-believe add-on. Reality is not a system since a system has rules and forms. Chaos is a good word for it - or emptiness. Illusions can have rules and forms. I suppose there could be illusions that don't, but the ones we usually have are illusions of duality and logic so we can create them with rules and forms. You can conduct business or play chess with an illusion of predictibility based on the rules and forms you think apply, but these rules and forms are illusory, which means they are ephemeral and impermanent, so the results are not really predictive but only probabilities. In the best case the illusions we create have rules and forms that approximate reality - like a structured sequence of pixels approximate a curved line - a digital representation of an analog shape. Just think logic = digital and reality/chaos = analog. It's kind of like that. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Bill, >  > I am continuing my attempt to understand you. At this moment, I assume you > have two systems in parallel: >  > 1. Real system with no rules or cause and effect. In other words, complete > chaos. >  > 2. Illusions with rules and cause and effects, where you can conduct computer > business with predictability and play chess to try to overwhelm your rival. >  > Is that right? >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:19 PM > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > >  > Anthony, > > I do work with illusions all the time. I like to think however that I know > they are illusions and don't confuse them with reality. I'm very good at it. > > It's like being a good chess player. You play on a finite board moving chess > pieces around that are assigned certain characteristics and have to obey > certain rules. As long as you know that the chess match is just a game then > you're okay. If you start to become attached to your chess pieces, like your > queen or your rooks, you're going expereience sufferring very quickly. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > à> > Setting aside what Asanga thought two thousand years ago about 'mind', > > whether it meaned discriminating or non-discriminating mind, I feel you are > > a soloist in the field. > > à> > If you can work so smartly on computer software, then degrade the approach > > to an unreal field, I am led to believe that you are working with illusions > > all the time. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 9:38 AM > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > à> > Anthony, > > > > My points and perspectives are the exact opposite of "...mind only > > philosophy, which says nothing is real except the mind.". My assertion is > > that nothing in the mind (the discriminating mind) is real. Some of it is > > pure fantasy and some of it may have a basis in reality but the concepts > > created by the discriminating mind have are like Plato's 'shadows on the > > cave wall' and worse. They have been filtered, augmented, categorized, > > judged, etc..., all from an manufactured dualistic perspective. > > > > I make a living working on computer software by applying logic, because a > > finite state (digital) computer is a manifestation of logic. I like to say > > a computer works the way we like to THINK our brain works. It doesn't. A > > computer is pure logic. We are a mixture of logic, emotion, whim, likes and > > dislikes, etc... > > > > And, by the way my specific expertise in computers is in decision systems > > which are an attempt to apply logic to chaos, to search out/deduce (invent > > actually) patterns in chaos. You can view my CV/Resume to see more exactly > > what I do at www.billsmart.bsc on the RESOURCE Page. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > Ãâà> > > Your point is along the line of the mind only philosophy, which says > > > nothing is real except the mind. But whether or not the reality is chaos, > > > no rules, no cause and effect and no flowing time sequence is another > > > matter. Besides the existence of absolute reality (which I don't deny), > > > you should consider the conventional wisdom. Otherwise, how do you make a > > > living on computer software. Next time your customer calls on you, you > > > can just go and throw their computer out of the window to complete the > > > 'chaos'. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 3:42 PM > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony, > > > > > > You can 'deduce' all you want. That doesn't make your deductions real. > > > They may be and they may not. I can see what I think are footprints in > > > the snow and deduce they were made by Bigfoot. That doesn't make Bigfoot > > > real - although I might realy, truly believe in his existence. > > > > > > Experience is real, nothing else. And that doesn't mean your perceptions > > > of experience, that means just your raw, unfiltered experience. I call > > > the awareness of that Buddha Nature. > > > > > > I do work in computers. They are a manifestation of logic and sequential > > > time - at least finite state (digital) computers are. Reality is not a > > > manifestation of logic or sequential time no matter how much humans would > > > like it to be. Reality is a manisfestation of chaos - no patterns, no > > > rules, no cause-and-effect, no flowing time sequence (past, present, > > > future): Just THIS! Only NOW! > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > I don't deny that you experience 'just this', so you think it is real. > > > > On the other hand, you don't need to experience everything to deduce > > > > that some of them are real. You believe jumping from a high building > > > > will cause death. You don't have to experience it. If you did, you > > > > would have to talk to us from heaven. That is what is called > > > > 'anti-science'. I understand you do computer software services, when > > > > you sort out your customer's problem, you believe it is real in the > > > > sense that the customer will run it well. Do you have to run their > > > > system every minute? Since it may go wrong although it is fine at the > > > > moment. > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 5:47 PM > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > I DO believe that jumping from a high building will cause death. I'm > > > > not arguing that. What I am arguing is that it is a belief and not an > > > > experience, therefore it is not real. It's only a belief - a concept. > > > > > > > > Just THIS! is experience and only an experience, therefore it is real. > > > > The term 'Just THIS!' which I use to communicate and the concept of > > > > 'Just THIS!' which you might form as a result of my communication are > > > > just terms and concepts. They are not real. You may believe in them if > > > > you wish but that doesn't make them real. If you experience 'Just > > > > THIS!' (Buddha Nature) then you will know it is real. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > If jumping from a high building will get oneself killed is not real, > > > > > I don't know what is real. Do you want to try it to find whether it > > > > > is real? > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > 'Only just this is real is another of your belief system. > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 9:00 AM > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > You're partially correct. > > > > > > > > > > That is part of my belief system, but it's not real - it's just a > > > > > belief system. > > > > > > > > > > Only Just THIS! is real. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > So that is your belief system, and it is real. > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 4:52 PM > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking would I jump off a 9-story building, the answer is > > > > > > no, and the reason is because I would be afraid of getting hurt or > > > > > > killed. And yes, this is because of my belief in cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking about the raw experience of jumping off a 9-story > > > > > > building I'd say the experience when you landed would be pretty > > > > > > severe and your discriminating mind probably wouldn't have much of > > > > > > a chance to create such determinations as 'gee, this hurts', or > > > > > > 'this is bad', or 'I don't think I'll do that again!'. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > While I can see that your statement regarding Buddha Nature > > > > > > > experience makes (zen) sense. You have to explain the cause and > > > > > > > effect of a person jumping from a nine story building. Does it > > > > > > > have a determinant effect? Is it 'raw'? > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@ > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 10:29 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' if you > > > > > > > have faith in the 'proof', have faith in the scientific method, > > > > > > > have faith in logic and human concept of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All belief systems are built on faith, and science is such a > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, > > > > > > > un-categorized, un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha Nature) > > > > > > > can be accpeted without faith. It is the only real thing you > > > > > > > have. All else are concepts and beliefs - and are based on faith, > > > > > > > not immediate, raw experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, dinosaurs, > > > > > > > > supernova... can. Science and > > > > > > > > historyÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàare > > > > > > > > as much a belief system as the knowledge that jumping from a > > > > > > > > nine story building without your psychic guru will get killed. > > > > > > > > They are less of that than Yehowa asking you to kill the people > > > > > > > > you conquered, and Buddha presenting a flower at the Vulture > > > > > > > > Peak. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a belief > > > > > > > > system than our theory of matter, molecules, atoms, atomic > > > > > > > > particles, hadrons, quarks, etc..ad infinitum? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a belief > > > > > > > > > system. Many times they run counter each other. For instance, > > > > > > > > > a scientist was lecturing on our solar system of the earth > > > > > > > > > rotating around the sun. A woman rose from seat and declared > > > > > > > > > it nonsense. She said, 'the earth is flat, supported by a > > > > > > > > > huge turtle.' 'Who supports the turtle?', she was asked. 'Oh, > > > > > > > > > you stupid. It is supported by another turtle. And still > > > > > > > > > anothor turtle. It is turtles all the way down.' That is a > > > > > > > > > belief system. > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > Grasshopper > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 'historical > > > > > > > > > facts' and 'science' aren't based on a belief system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ' > Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Belief systems and historical facts are different things. > > > > > > > > > > It is OK to deify Buddha in sutras or any scriptures > > > > > > > > > > compiled in the name of Buddha, as long as you bear that in > > > > > > > > > > mind. However, historical facts such as the real life of > > > > > > > > > > Buddha and that of the sixth Patriarch had better be > > > > > > > > > > maintained in as close to history as possible. I consider > > > > > > > > > > the latter a 'science'. > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ' > Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâà'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ' > Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâæÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã 'ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃââÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâìÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬Ã¦ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony and ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of the Flower > > > > > > > > > > Sermon as absolute fact. I just assume they are mythic to a > > > > > > > > > > greater or lessor extent. Whether or not any of these > > > > > > > > > > things written about in the Sutras, the Bible or any other > > > > > > > > > > Holy Books actually happened is not important to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are containted in > > > > > > > > > > the Sutras; the 'seed' of Zen is revealed in the Flower > > > > > > > > > > Sermon; and the 'seed' of zen (Buddha Nature) already > > > > > > > > > > exists in every sentient being. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See: > > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature > > > > > > > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. Anyway, what > > > > > > > > > > > matter to me is > > > > > > > > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - and > > > > > > > > > > > that's all that > > > > > > > > > > > matters to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th century, > > > > > > > > > > > > while the Buddha > > > > > > > > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in the 2,000 > > > > > > > > > > > year gap? Did > > > > > > > > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to transmit > > > > > > > > > > > the dharma? Or > > > > > > > > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to spread the > > > > > > > > > > > untold teaching? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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