[Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism

Fri, 04 Nov 2011 18:49:16 -0700 

Neal,

I checked out the North Carolina Zen Center website.  It looks like a good 
group.  I don't know the Roshi there but I did meet his teacher Joshu Sasaki 
Roshi.  I attended a week sesshin at Mt. Baldy Zen Center in the mid-1970's.  
His programs there seemed very good.

I also checked out your other link: The Zennist.  I thought it would be 
something really outrageous but the little bit I looked at seemed okay to me.  
I didn't see or sense any of the antisocial tone you picked up on.

Anyway face-to-face associations and relationships are always the best.   I 
encourage you to continue to visit NC Zen Center and if you haven't already 
done so – start sitting (zazen)!

…Bill!



--- In [email protected], Neal Oldham <neal.oldham@...> wrote:
>
> My experience with my local sangha (http://www.nczencenter.org) has been 
> overwhelmingly positive.  They're the least psychotic people I know; hell, 
> the least neurotic as well.
> 
> But I read sites like http://zennist.typepad.com/ or read some of these 
> Advaita Vedanta guys and worry that to be really "liberated" in that sense 
> means to really be a antisocial loon.
> 
> On Nov 4, 2011, at 4:34 AM, Bill! wrote:
> 
> > Neal,
> > 
> > I don't think anyone can 'prove you wrong' in believing that. You can only 
> > find out for yourself.
> > 
> > You could get a hint about your theory by joing a Zen sangha and observing 
> > the teacher and his senior students. If you like what you see then join 
> > them. If you don't then continue on your way.
> > 
> > ...Bill! 
> > 
> > --- In [email protected], Neal Oldham <neal.oldham@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I worry a lot now that the whole point of "Zen"/"Buddhism" is to cure 
> > > neurosis by replacing it with psychosis.
> > > 
> > > And that Buddha nature is a construct to attain this end.
> > > 
> > > Who can prove me wrong?
> > > 
> > > On Nov 3, 2011, at 6:04 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Bill,
> > > > 
> > > > I believe it is the first time I have heard you say 'just this' can 
> > > > eliminate suffering. I am interested, whether it is called reality or 
> > > > illusion.
> > > > 
> > > > Anthony
> > > > 
> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2011 12:47 PM
> > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Anthony,
> > > > 
> > > > Just THIS! is not just my awareness when sitting although it is the 
> > > > strongest and most consistent then. I've said many times before on this 
> > > > forum my continuing practice is to bring Buddha Nature up off the 
> > > > cushion and into my daily life. This is my practice.
> > > > 
> > > > You can redefine these terms however you want. You can call what I call 
> > > > illusions reality, and you can call what I call Buddha Nature an 
> > > > illusion. That is fine with me. If however you are uncomf'ortable with 
> > > > the suffering in your 'reality and would like to discover how to 
> > > > eliminate it, you could try sitting and enter into my 'illusory world' 
> > > > of Buddha Nature.
> > > > 
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > > 
> > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bill,
> > > > > Â 
> > > > > It looks like you spend most of your time on 'Illusions that are like 
> > > > > a contorted, make-believe add-on.', while you only have 'reality' 
> > > > > that is chaos or 'just this' when you sit zen. It probably can be 
> > > > > redefined that the former is reality, whereas the latter is just 
> > > > > halucination.
> > > > > Â 
> > > > > anthony
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 5:26 PM
> > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Â 
> > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > 
> > > > > That is essentially the case but I'd need to change the wording 
> > > > > somewhat to make it more correct:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Reality and illusion do not operate in parallel. There is only 
> > > > > reality. Illusions are like a contorted, make-believe add-on.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Reality is not a system since a system has rules and forms. Chaos is 
> > > > > a good word for it - or emptiness.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Illusions can have rules and forms. I suppose there could be 
> > > > > illusions that don't, but the ones we usually have are illusions of 
> > > > > duality and logic so we can create them with rules and forms. You can 
> > > > > conduct business or play chess with an illusion of predictibility 
> > > > > based on the rules and forms you think apply, but these rules and 
> > > > > forms are illusory, which means they are ephemeral and impermanent, 
> > > > > so the results are not really predictive but only probabilities. In 
> > > > > the best case the illusions we create have rules and forms that 
> > > > > approximate reality - like a structured sequence of pixels 
> > > > > approximate a curved line - a digital representation of an analog 
> > > > > shape.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just think logic = digital and reality/chaos = analog. It's kind of 
> > > > > like that. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > I am continuing my attempt to understand you. At this moment, I 
> > > > > > assume you have two systems in parallel:
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 1. Real system with no rules or cause and effect. In other words, 
> > > > > > complete chaos.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 2. Illusions with rules and cause and effects, where you can 
> > > > > > conduct computer business with predictability and play chess to try 
> > > > > > to overwhelm your rival.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Is that right?
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 3:19 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I do work with illusions all the time. I like to think however that 
> > > > > > I know they are illusions and don't confuse them with reality. I'm 
> > > > > > very good at it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > It's like being a good chess player. You play on a finite board 
> > > > > > moving chess pieces around that are assigned certain 
> > > > > > characteristics and have to obey certain rules. As long as you know 
> > > > > > that the chess match is just a game then you're okay. If you start 
> > > > > > to become attached to your chess pieces, like your queen or your 
> > > > > > rooks, you're going expereience sufferring very quickly.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Setting aside what Asanga thought two thousand years ago about 
> > > > > > > 'mind', whether it meaned discriminating or non-discriminating 
> > > > > > > mind, I feel you are a soloist in the field.
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > If you can work so smartly on computer software, then degrade the 
> > > > > > > approach to an unreal field, I am led to believe that you are 
> > > > > > > working with illusions all the time.
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011 9:38 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > My points and perspectives are the exact opposite of "...mind 
> > > > > > > only philosophy, which says nothing is real except the mind.". My 
> > > > > > > assertion is that nothing in the mind (the discriminating mind) 
> > > > > > > is real. Some of it is pure fantasy and some of it may have a 
> > > > > > > basis in reality but the concepts created by the discriminating 
> > > > > > > mind have are like Plato's 'shadows on the cave wall' and worse. 
> > > > > > > They have been filtered, augmented, categorized, judged, etc..., 
> > > > > > > all from an manufactured dualistic perspective.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I make a living working on computer software by applying logic, 
> > > > > > > because a finite state (digital) computer is a manifestation of 
> > > > > > > logic. I like to say a computer works the way we like to THINK 
> > > > > > > our brain works. It doesn't. A computer is pure logic. We are a 
> > > > > > > mixture of logic, emotion, whim, likes and dislikes, etc...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > And, by the way my specific expertise in computers is in decision 
> > > > > > > systems which are an attempt to apply logic to chaos, to search 
> > > > > > > out/deduce (invent actually) patterns in chaos. You can view my 
> > > > > > > CV/Resume to see more exactly what I do at www.billsmart.bsc on 
> > > > > > > the RESOURCE Page.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > Your point is along the line of the mind only philosophy, which 
> > > > > > > > says nothing is real except the mind. But whether or not the 
> > > > > > > > reality is chaos, no rules, no cause and effect and no flowing 
> > > > > > > > time sequence is another matter. Besides the existence of 
> > > > > > > > absolute reality (which I don't deny), you should consider the 
> > > > > > > > conventional wisdom. Otherwise, how do you make a living on 
> > > > > > > > computer software. Next time your customer calls on you, you 
> > > > > > > > can just go and throw their computer out of the window to 
> > > > > > > > complete the 'chaos'.
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 1 November 2011 3:42 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > You can 'deduce' all you want. That doesn't make your 
> > > > > > > > deductions real. They may be and they may not. I can see what I 
> > > > > > > > think are footprints in the snow and deduce they were made by 
> > > > > > > > Bigfoot. That doesn't make Bigfoot real - although I might 
> > > > > > > > realy, truly believe in his existence.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Experience is real, nothing else. And that doesn't mean your 
> > > > > > > > perceptions of experience, that means just your raw, unfiltered 
> > > > > > > > experience. I call the awareness of that Buddha Nature.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > I do work in computers. They are a manifestation of logic and 
> > > > > > > > sequential time - at least finite state (digital) computers 
> > > > > > > > are. Reality is not a manifestation of logic or sequential time 
> > > > > > > > no matter how much humans would like it to be. Reality is a 
> > > > > > > > manisfestation of chaos - no patterns, no rules, no 
> > > > > > > > cause-and-effect, no flowing time sequence (past, present, 
> > > > > > > > future): Just THIS! Only NOW!
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > > I don't deny that you experience 'just this', so you think it 
> > > > > > > > > is real. On the other hand, you don't need to experience 
> > > > > > > > > everything to deduce that some of them are real. You believe 
> > > > > > > > > jumping from a high building will cause death. You don't have 
> > > > > > > > > to experience it. If you did, you would have to talk to us 
> > > > > > > > > from heaven. That is what is called 'anti-science'. I 
> > > > > > > > > understand you do computer software services, when you sort 
> > > > > > > > > out your customer's problem, you believe it is real in the 
> > > > > > > > > sense that the customer will run it well. Do you have to run 
> > > > > > > > > their system every minute? Since it may go wrong although it 
> > > > > > > > > is fine at the moment.
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 5:47 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I DO believe that jumping from a high building will cause 
> > > > > > > > > death. I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that it is 
> > > > > > > > > a belief and not an experience, therefore it is not real. 
> > > > > > > > > It's only a belief - a concept.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Just THIS! is experience and only an experience, therefore it 
> > > > > > > > > is real. The term 'Just THIS!' which I use to communicate and 
> > > > > > > > > the concept of 'Just THIS!' which you might form as a result 
> > > > > > > > > of my communication are just terms and concepts. They are not 
> > > > > > > > > real. You may believe in them if you wish but that doesn't 
> > > > > > > > > make them real. If you experience 'Just THIS!' (Buddha 
> > > > > > > > > Nature) then you will know it is real.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > If jumping from a high building will get oneself killed is 
> > > > > > > > > > not real, I don't know what is real. Do you want to try it 
> > > > > > > > > > to find whether it is real?
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 'Only just this is real is another of your belief system.
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 31 October 2011 9:00 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > You're partially correct.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > That is part of my belief system, but it's not real - it's 
> > > > > > > > > > just a belief system.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Only Just THIS! is real.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > So that is your belief system, and it is real.
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 30 October 2011 4:52 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking would I jump off a 9-story building, the 
> > > > > > > > > > > answer is no, and the reason is because I would be afraid 
> > > > > > > > > > > of getting hurt or killed. And yes, this is because of my 
> > > > > > > > > > > belief in cause-and-effect.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > If you're asking about the raw experience of jumping off 
> > > > > > > > > > > a 9-story building I'd say the experience when you landed 
> > > > > > > > > > > would be pretty severe and your discriminating mind 
> > > > > > > > > > > probably wouldn't have much of a chance to create such 
> > > > > > > > > > > determinations as 'gee, this hurts', or 'this is bad', or 
> > > > > > > > > > > 'I don't think I'll do that again!'.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> 
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > While I can see that your statement regarding Buddha 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nature experience makes (zen) sense. You have to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > explain the cause and effect of a person jumping from a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > nine story building. Does it have a determinant effect? 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it 'raw'?
> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > To: Zen_Forum@
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 10:29 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Quarks, dinosaurs, etc..., can only stand up to 'proof' 
> > > > > > > > > > > > if you have faith in the 'proof', have faith in the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > scientific method, have faith in logic and human 
> > > > > > > > > > > > concept of cause-and-effect.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > All belief systems are built on faith, and science is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > such a system.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Only raw, un-filtered, un-censored, un-interpreted, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > un-categorized, un-valuated sensory experience (Buddha 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nature) can be accpeted without faith. It is the only 
> > > > > > > > > > > > real thing you have. All else are concepts and beliefs 
> > > > > > > > > > > > - and are based on faith, not immediate, raw experience.
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > The story of turtles cannot stand proof, but quarks, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > dinosaurs, supernova... can. Science and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > historyÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã †
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  are as much a belief system as the knowledge that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > jumping from a nine story building
> > > > > without your psychic guru will get killed. They are less of that than 
> > > > > Yehowa asking you to kill the people you conquered, and Buddha 
> > > > > presenting a flower at the Vulture Peak.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 29 October 2011 9:27 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€&n 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > bsp;'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ...and is the endless series of turtles any less of a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > belief system than our theory of matter, molecules, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > atoms, atomic particles, hadrons, quarks, etc..ad 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > infinitum?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Historical facts and science are NOT based on a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > belief system. Many times they run counter each 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > other. For instance, a scientist was lecturing on 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > our solar system of the earth rotating around the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > sun. A woman rose from seat and declared it 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > nonsense. She said, 'the earth is flat, supported 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > by a huge turtle.' 'Who supports the turtle?', she 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > was asked. 'Oh, you stupid. It is supported by 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > another turtle. And still anothor turtle. It is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > turtles all the way down.' That is a belief system.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢ 
> > > > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'à †'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
> > > > > Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Â 
> > > > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Grasshopper
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, 28 October 2011 4:13 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢ 
> > > > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'à †'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'
> > > > > Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Â 
> > > > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And so, little grasshopper, are you saying that 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 'historical facts' and 'science' aren't based on a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > belief system?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ' 
> > > > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Ã
> > > > >  †'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€à ‚ 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ
> > > > > ‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'
> > > > > >
> > > > > Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'à 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€Â  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
> > > > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Belief systems and historical facts are different 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > things. It is OK to deify Buddha in sutras or any 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > scriptures compiled in the name of Buddha, as 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long as you bear that in mind. However, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > historical facts such as the real life of Buddha 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and that of the sixth Patriarch had better be 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintained in as close to history as possible. I 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consider the latter a 'science'.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ' 
> > > > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Ã
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> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€à ‚ 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ
> > > > > ‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'
> > > > > >
> > > > > Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'à 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€Â  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
> > > > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 4:56 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ' 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ' 
> > > > > ¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Ã
> > > > >  †'‚ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚ 
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€à ‚ 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ
> > > > > ‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'
> > > > > >
> > > > > Æ'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'‚¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'à 
> > > > > ¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'â€Â  'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢
> > > > > €šÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  'ÃÆ'†
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ãâ€
> > > > >  
> > > > > 'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ
> > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony and ED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't take any of the Sutras or the story of 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Flower Sermon as absolute fact. I just assume 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > they are mythic to a greater or lessor extent. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whether or not any of these things written about 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the Sutras, the Bible or any other Holy Books 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually happened is not important to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I still believe the 'seeds' of Buddhism are 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > containted in the Sutras; the 'seed' of Zen is 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > revealed in the Flower Sermon; and the 'seed' of 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > zen (Buddha Nature) already exists in every 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sentient being.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <seacrofter001@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All teachings are continually evolving. See:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I find the Flower Sutra to be magnificent. 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, what matter to me is
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the Flower Sutra edifies and inspires me - 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and that's all that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > matters to me.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --ED
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <wuasg@> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ED,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the Flower Sermon appeared in the 14th 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > century, while the Buddha
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lived in the 6th Century BC, what happened in 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 2,000 year gap? Did
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the physical Buddha returned from the grave to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transmit the dharma? Or
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the 'dharmakaya' of the Buddha showed up to 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > spread the untold teaching?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


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