"You tracked it correctly. Explained incorrectly." Pardon? I'll stay with my original question and the implied assertion that reality is in fact material reality.
--- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Rewrisk, >  > You tracked it correctly. Explained incorrectly. I referred to Mike's > contradiction against his usual way, by saying that nothing exists except > atoms and space. I did not state my view. Nevertheless, I give you a thesis > here. For instance, Bill insists nothing at all exists in this world (maybe > only chaos and Buddha nature exist).What is your comment? >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 18:04 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > I am sorry was this not your post. > I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your vipassana > with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just hallucinations. > > I thought I had tracked it correctly. > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > à> > You say, 'So Anthony do you really believe that you know something that > > does not exist? > > I would like to see such a thing?' > > à> > I never said that. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 11:59 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > > > > à> > So Anthony do you really believe that you know something that does not > > exist? > > I would like to see such a thing? > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > Ãâà> > > Only just now you said atoms and empty space, and the rest don't. That is > > > a materialistic view, which have existed (besides atoms and space) > > > thousands of years. > > > Ãâà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 0:13 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > Ãâà> > > Hi Anthony, > > > > > > My point is that labeling phenonema and things is all just opinion. > > > Saying I am, or am not, a Buddhist (for example) is to miss the point of > > > Zen. Same with labeling phenonema as 'cause and effect' or 'freewill'. > > > These things simply don't exist in the universe. We can claim they exist > > > in the sense that counting exists, yet the number 4 doesn't. Same with > > > unicorns and Buddhists. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > >friends & family react? > > > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > >Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 8:53 > > > > > > > > > > > >Ãâà> > > >Mike, > > > >Ãâà> > > >I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your > > > >vipassana with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just > > > >hallucinations. > > > >Ãâà> > > >Anthony > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > > >To: [email protected] > > > >Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 21:29 > > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > >friends & family react? > > > > > > > >Ãâà> > > >Siska, > > > > > > > >ÃâàNothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is > > > >just opinion. > > > > > > > > > >ÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàÃâàà > âàÃâà- Democritus > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > >--- On Sat, 14/1/12, siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>From: siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> > > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > >>friends & family react? > > > >>To: [email protected] > > > >>Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>Ãâà> > > >>Hi Bill,It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather slow, > > > >>perhaps lately, if not always.The idea that cause and effect is > > > >>illusory is quite new to me. I remember Anthony mentioning it before, > > > >>but didn't really sink in. I thought the concept of cause and effect is > > > >>something that is parallel to dependent origination, which is to say > > > >>that everything is simultaneously affecting many other things in such > > > >>complicated manner that our mind cannot really grasp it. Even if it > > > >>can, it is actually of no use. As you said, the mind needs it to 'feel' > > > >>secure.I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think about > > > >>it IS illusory.Siska > > > >> > > > >>________________________________ > > > >> > > > >>From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > > >>Sender: [email protected] > > > >>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 > > > >>To: <[email protected]> > > > >>ReplyTo: [email protected] > > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > >>friends family react?Ãâà> > > >>Siska,Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory.The belief in > > > >>cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to > > > >>'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is > > > >>fundamentally chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic > > > >>experience (Just THIS!) into pieces, and then to categorize and even > > > >>directly associating some pieces with others by assigning a dependent > > > >>cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs or sets of pieces. The > > > >>establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit > > > >>your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or real. They > > > >>are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are > > > >>dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of > > > >>cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a > > > >>certain sense of control of life.The concept of karma is a spritualized > > > >>version of cause-and-effect which is usually thought of as purely a > > > >>physical > > > relationship.The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in > > > zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft > > > flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your > > > attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come > > > out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security > > > blanket and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown and > > > unknowable.There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. > > > Just THIS!...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:>> > > > Hi Bill,> > > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect.> > > > Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory?> > Siska> > > > -----Original Message-----> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@>> Sender: > > > [email protected]> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 > To: > > > <[email protected]>> Reply-To: [email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > > did your friends & family react?> > Anthony,> > When I said 'outside > > > agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. When you say 'karma > > > functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists independently of > > > you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' you are > > > implying that God exists independently of you. You are implying that > > > 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or separate > > > from you.> > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and > > > all their supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT > > > separate from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. > > > They are illusory.> > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, > > > you die. If you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose > > > property. The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is > > > the same action viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just > > > THIS!> > This is my experience...Bill!> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> >> > Bill,> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > The difference is that karma does not rely on > > > God or any other 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other > > > hand, if you deny karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, > > > looting or burning, does not have any effects? You may say you rely on > > > law to take care of it. But that is part of karma, at the human level. > > > Nevertheless, it is more realistic than reliance on God. if all are > > > illusory, killing and looting will be out of control. In that case, > > > believing in God is better than believing in nothing.> > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > Anthony> > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > To: > > > [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > > friends & family react?> > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > Anthony,> > > > > > > How are > they different concepts?> > > > Both > > have to do with > > > action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as a concept in your > > > mind.> > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or > > > bad (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or > > > accumulation of [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just > > > packaging. Likewise attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or > > > cause/effect to an outside agency such as karma or God is also just > > > packaging.> > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic > > > packaging.> > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], > > > Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > >> > > Bill,> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > It is a different message > > > you wrap in the same envelope.> > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > > To: > > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began > learning about buddhism, How did your friends & > > family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > Anthony,> > > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > > > > > > that definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept > > > > > > of sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven?> > > > > > For me it's the same > > > > > > message in a different envelope.> > > > > > ...Bill!> > > > > > --- > > > > > > In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > > > > > nature).> > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January > > > > > > 2012, 18:03> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about > > > > > > buddhism, How did your friends & family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' > > also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven and if you're > > > 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill!> > > > > > > > --- In > > > [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàis > > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. Try doing > > > the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this > > > forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that karma is > > > your own business, nobody else > can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who > respond to your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and > there are a view I term chaotic > > zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > > everything is in chaos. On > > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I > > > hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@>> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08> > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you > > > began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family > react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââ¬Â 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although > technically > > I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety of tv shows, > > movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, > > but the scenes with the shoalin temple > > > and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > Although > > > I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for my sister) > > > that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books and notes I > > > leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been encouraging. > > > They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they see it that > > > suggests that they are not happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an > > > atheist (which they've known for years). When I finally told my sister > > > that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? > > > You'll never go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist > > > church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I > > > didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel > > > like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I get > > > along great with both of them, known them for > several > > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I > > > told her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never > > > knew that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been > > > reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've > > > been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock > > > and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, > > > I was discussing various books with another boss that we like to read, > > > and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He > > > asked what it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a > > > buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look.> > > > > > > > > > What's > > > funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism to be one of > > > the most revered and highly respected forms of philosophy and religion on > > > earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go online to Yahoo Answers > > > R&S forum to ask a question > pertaining > > > to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single question, and if any > > > of you have ever been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in > > > that section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy > > > reactions from people I know.> > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these > > > same reactions from the people you knew when you were first learning > > > about buddhism?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
