To encounter the absolute is not yet enlightenment. Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
On Jan 16, 2012, at 4:47, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > Siska, > > 1. Mountains are mountains. > 2. Mountains are not mountains. > 3. Mountains are mountains. > > Edgar > > > On Jan 15, 2012, at 7:18 PM, [email protected] wrote: > >> Hi Edgar, >> >> It isn't as it seems, just as it seems to exist? ;-) >> >> Siska >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 08:44:35 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, >> How did your friends & family react? >> >> Siska, >> >> Nonsense, everything exists. It just isn't as it seems.... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Jan 15, 2012, at 12:45 AM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> >>> In this regards, "Nothing exists, no exceptions". >>> >>> Siska >>> >>> From: mike brown <[email protected]> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:29:18 +0000 (GMT) >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> ReplyTo: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>> friends family react? >>> >>> >>> Siska, >>> >>> Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is just >>> opinion. >>> >>> >>> - Democritus >>> >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> --- On Sat, 14/1/12, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>> friends & family react? >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 >>> >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>> It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather slow, perhaps lately, >>> if not always. >>> >>> The idea that cause and effect is illusory is quite new to me. I remember >>> Anthony mentioning it before, but didn't really sink in. I thought the >>> concept of cause and effect is something that is parallel to dependent >>> origination, which is to say that everything is simultaneously affecting >>> many other things in such complicated manner that our mind cannot really >>> grasp it. Even if it can, it is actually of no use. As you said, the mind >>> needs it to 'feel' secure. >>> >>> I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think about it IS >>> illusory. >>> >>> Siska >>> >>> From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> ReplyTo: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>> friends family react? >>> >>> >>> Siska, >>> >>> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. >>> >>> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to >>> 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally >>> chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) >>> into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some >>> pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship >>> to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these >>> cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They >>> are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, subjective and >>> illusory - this is because they are dependent upon your dualistic concept >>> of self/other. The illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more >>> comfortable and gives you a certain sense of control of life. >>> >>> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is >>> usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. >>> >>> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as >>> 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These >>> are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments >>> (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your >>> fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw >>> yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. >>> >>> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! >>> >>> ...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Bill, >>>> >>>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. >>>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? >>>> >>>> Siska >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> >>>> Sender: [email protected] >>>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 >>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>> friends & family react? >>>> >>>> Anthony, >>>> >>>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. >>>> When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that karma >>>> exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours >>>> (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of you. >>>> You are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside >>>> of and/or separate from you. >>>> >>>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their >>>> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from >>>> you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are >>>> illusory. >>>> >>>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, >>>> there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is >>>> not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or >>>> described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! >>>> >>>> This is my experience...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>>  >>>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside >>>>> agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, >>>>> does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, does >>>>> not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But >>>>> that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more >>>>> realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting >>>>> will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is better than >>>>> believing in nothing. >>>>>  >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>> friends & family react? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Anthony, >>>>> >>>>> How are they different concepts? >>>>> >>>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist >>>>> as a concept in your mind. >>>>> >>>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good >>>>> deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] >>>>> karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise >>>>> attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an >>>>> outside agency such as karma or God is also just packaging. >>>>> >>>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill, >>>>>>  >>>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. >>>>>>  >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Anthony, >>>>>> >>>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that >>>>>> definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of >>>>>> sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? >>>>>> >>>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. >>>>>> >>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action >>>>>>> and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  >>>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven >>>>>>> and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ItÃÆ'‚ is not at all surprising that you got a funny >>>>>>>> reaction from people surrounding you when you said you were interested >>>>>>>> in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a >>>>>>>> funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to >>>>>>>> Buddhism, you find different views on it. >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to karma. >>>>>>>> The difference between the two is the former insists that karma is >>>>>>>> your own business, nobody else can help you change it. However, in >>>>>>>> Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your requests and >>>>>>>> assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I >>>>>>>> term chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or >>>>>>>> rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will >>>>>>>> also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 >>>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just >>>>>>>> recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although >>>>>>>> technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety >>>>>>>> of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend >>>>>>>> Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple and >>>>>>>> buddhist monks were always my favorite. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for my >>>>>>>> sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books and >>>>>>>> notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been >>>>>>>> encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they >>>>>>>> see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are >>>>>>>> catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I >>>>>>>> finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she >>>>>>>> got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, but >>>>>>>> you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told >>>>>>>> her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, >>>>>>>> and that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't >>>>>>>> pleased. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I >>>>>>>> get along great with both of them, known them for several years. My >>>>>>>> co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her I >>>>>>>> was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew >>>>>>>> that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading >>>>>>>> up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've been >>>>>>>> hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and >>>>>>>> disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I >>>>>>>> was discussing various books with another boss that we like to read, >>>>>>>> and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He >>>>>>>> asked what it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a >>>>>>>> buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism to >>>>>>>> be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of philosophy >>>>>>>> and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go >>>>>>>> online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining to it, >>>>>>>> I haven't had any bad replies over a single question, and if any of >>>>>>>> you have ever been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in >>>>>>>> that section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy >>>>>>>> reactions from people I know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew when >>>>>>>> you were first learning about buddhism? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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