Mike, I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your vipassana with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just hallucinations. Anthony
________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 21:29 Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react? Siska, Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is just opinion. - Democritus Mike --- On Sat, 14/1/12, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >friends & family react? >To: [email protected] >Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 > > > >Hi Bill, > >It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather slow, perhaps lately, if >not always. > >The idea that cause and effect is illusory is quite new to me. I remember >Anthony mentioning it before, but didn't really sink in. I thought the concept >of cause and effect is something that is parallel to dependent origination, >which is to say that everything is simultaneously affecting many other things >in such complicated manner that our mind cannot really grasp it. Even if it >can, it is actually of no use. As you said, the mind needs it to 'feel' secure. > >I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think about it IS illusory. > >Siska > >________________________________ > >From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> >Sender: [email protected] >Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 >To: <[email protected]> >ReplyTo: [email protected] >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >friends family react? >Siska, > >Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. > >The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to >'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally >chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) into >pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some pieces with >others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship to these pairs >or sets of pieces. The establishment of these cause-and-effect relationships >are done to fit your needs at the time. They are not absolute, objective or >real. They are relational, subjective and illusory - this is because they are >dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The illusion of >cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a certain sense >of control of life. > >The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is >usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. > >The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as >'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These >are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments (espcially >to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your fantasy comfort >zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw yourself completly >into the stark unknown and unknowable. > >There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! > >...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> > The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. >> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? >> >> Siska >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> friends & family react? >> >> Anthony, >> >> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. >> When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists >> independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be >> done' you are implying that God exists independently of you. You are >> implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or >> separate from you. >> >> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their >> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from >> you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are >> illusory. >> >> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, >> there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is not >> the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or >> described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! >> >> This is my experience...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >> > >> > Bill, >> >  >> > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside >> > agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, does >> > that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, does not >> > have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But that >> > is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic >> > than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting will be out >> > of control. In that case, believing in God is better than believing in >> > nothing. >> >  >> > Anthony >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >> > To: [email protected] >> > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> > friends & family react? >> > >> > >> >  >> > Anthony, >> > >> > How are they different concepts? >> > >> > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as >> > a concept in your mind. >> > >> > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good deeds >> > lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] karma >> > leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng >> > the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency >> > such as karma or God is also just packaging. >> > >> > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. >> > >> > ...Bill! >> > >> > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Bill, >> > >  >> > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. >> > >  >> > > Anthony >> > > >> > > >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 >> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> > > friends & family react? >> > > >> > > >> > >  >> > > Anthony, >> > > >> > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that >> > > definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of >> > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? >> > > >> > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. >> > > >> > > ...Bill! >> > > >> > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action >> > > > and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). >> > > >  >> > > > Anthony >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ________________________________ >> > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 >> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did >> > > > your friends & family react? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >  >> > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven >> > > > and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! >> > > > >> > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > ItÃÆ'‚ is not at all surprising that you got a funny >> > > > > reaction from people surrounding you when you said you were >> > > > > interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and >> > > > > you get a funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less >> > > > > hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to >> > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that >> > > > > karma is your own business, nobody else can help you change it. >> > > > > However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your >> > > > > requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there >> > > > > are a view I term chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or >> > > > > any laws or rules. They say everything is in chaos. On the other >> > > > > hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope >> > > > > you have fun here. >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > Anthony >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> >> > > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 >> > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> > > > > friends & family react? >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ÃÆ'‚ >> > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just >> > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although >> > > > > technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety >> > > > > of tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend >> > > > > Continues. Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple >> > > > > and buddhist monks were always my favorite. >> > > > > >> > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for >> > > > > my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books >> > > > > and notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not >> > > > > been encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when >> > > > > they see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are >> > > > > catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I >> > > > > finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she >> > > > > got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, >> > > > > but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I >> > > > > told her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism >> > > > > anymore, and that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She >> > > > > wasn't pleased. >> > > > > >> > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I >> > > > > get along great with both of them, known them for several years. My >> > > > > co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her >> > > > > I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew >> > > > > that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been >> > > > > reading up on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan >> > > > > I've been hearing from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look >> > > > > of shock and disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so >> > > > > before that, I was discussing various books with another boss that >> > > > > we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the >> > > > > Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so I told him, and when >> > > > > I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. >> > > > > >> > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism >> > > > > to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of >> > > > > philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. >> > > > > When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question >> > > > > pertaining to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single >> > > > > question, and if any of you have ever been on there, you know they >> > > > > can be harsh sometimes in that section. So it really threw me for a >> > > > > loop seeing all these crazy reactions from people I know. >> > > > > >> > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew >> > > > > when you were first learning about buddhism? >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > >
