Rewrisk, You tracked it correctly. Explained incorrectly. I referred to Mike's contradiction against his usual way, by saying that nothing exists except atoms and space. I did not state my view. Nevertheless, I give you a thesis here. For instance, Bill insists nothing at all exists in this world (maybe only chaos and Buddha nature exist).What is your comment? Anthony
________________________________ From: rewrisk <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 18:04 Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react? I am sorry was this not your post. I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your vipassana with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just hallucinations. I thought I had tracked it correctly. --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > Hi, >  > You say, 'So Anthony do you really believe that you know something that does > not exist? > I would like to see such a thing?' >  > I never said that. >  > Anthony > > > ________________________________ > From: rewrisk <rewrisk@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 23 January 2012, 11:59 > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > friends & family react? > > >  > So Anthony do you really believe that you know something that does not exist? > I would like to see such a thing? > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Mike, > >  > > Only just now you said atoms and empty space, and the rest don't. That is a > > materialistic view, which have existed (besides atoms and space) thousands > > of years. > >  > > Anthony > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 0:13 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react? > > > >  > > Hi Anthony, > > > > My point is that labeling phenonema and things is all just opinion. Saying > > I am, or am not, a Buddhist (for example) is to miss the point of Zen. Same > > with labeling phenonema as 'cause and effect' or 'freewill'. These things > > simply don't exist in the universe. We can claim they exist in the sense > > that counting exists, yet the number 4 doesn't. Same with unicorns and > > Buddhists. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 15/1/12, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > >From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@> > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > >friends & family react? > > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > >Date: Sunday, 15 January, 2012, 8:53 > > > > > > > > > > > >Mike, > > > > > >I am surprised you take that materialistic view. So all of your vipassana > > >with ensuing red, brown, crimson lights are just hallucinations. > > > > > >Anthony > > > > > >________________________________ > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@> > > >To: [email protected] > > >Sent: Saturday, 14 January 2012, 21:29 > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > >friends & family react? > > > > > > > > >Siska, > > > > > > Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is just > > >opinion. > > > > > >                                                                                                           à ‚ Â - Democritus > > > > > > > > >Mike > > > > > >--- On Sat, 14/1/12, siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>From: siska_cen@ <siska_cen@> > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > >>friends & family react? > > >>To: [email protected] > > >>Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>Hi Bill,It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather slow, > > >>perhaps lately, if not always.The idea that cause and effect is illusory > > >>is quite new to me. I remember Anthony mentioning it before, but didn't > > >>really sink in. I thought the concept of cause and effect is something > > >>that is parallel to dependent origination, which is to say that > > >>everything is simultaneously affecting many other things in such > > >>complicated manner that our mind cannot really grasp it. Even if it can, > > >>it is actually of no use. As you said, the mind needs it to 'feel' > > >>secure.I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think about it > > >>IS illusory.Siska > > >> > > >>________________________________ > > >> > > >>From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@> > > >>Sender: [email protected] > > >>Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 > > >>To: <[email protected]> > > >>ReplyTo: [email protected] > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > >>friends family react? > > >>Siska,Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory.The belief in > > >>cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to > > >>'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally > > >>chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) > > >>into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some > > >>pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship > > >>to these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these > > >>cause-and-effect relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. > > >>They are not absolute, objective or real. They are relational, subjective > > >>and illusory - this is because they are dependent upon your dualistic > > >>concept of self/other. The illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel > > >>more comfortable and gives you a certain sense of control of life.The > > >>concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is > > >>usually thought of as purely a physical > > relationship.The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in > > zen stories as 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft > > flagpole'. These are teachings telling you that you must let go of your > > attachments (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come > > out of your fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket > > and throw yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable.There's > > no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS!...Bill! --- > > In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote:>> Hi Bill,> > > The killing > > is not the cause and the dieing the effect.> Would you then say that cause > > and effect is illusory?> > Siska> -----Original Message-----> From: "Bill!" > > <BillSmart@>> Sender: [email protected]> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 > > 08:18:32 > To: <[email protected]>> Reply-To: > > [email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about > > buddhism, How > > did your friends & family react?> > Anthony,> > When I said 'outside > > agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. When you say 'karma > > functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists independently of > > you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be done' you are > > implying that God exists independently of you. You are implying that > > 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or separate from > > you.> > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all > > their supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > > from you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are > > illusory.> > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If > > you loot, there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The > > killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action > > viewed or described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS!> > This is my > > experience...Bill!> > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> >> > Bill,> > > >  > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny > > karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, > > does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. > > But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more > > realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting > > will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is better than > > believing in nothing.> >  > > Anthony> > > > > > > > ________________________________> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > To: > > [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your > > friends & family react?> > > > > >  > > Anthony,> > > > How are they different concepts?> > > > Both > have to do with > > action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as a concept in your > > mind.> > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad > > (good deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > [bad] karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise > > attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an > > outside agency such as karma or God is also just packaging.> > > > It all > > looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging.> > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > >> > > > > Bill,> > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > It is a different message you wrap in > > the same envelope.> > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>> > > To: > > [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15> > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & > family react?> > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > Anthony,> > > > > > You definition of > > > > > karma is well stated, but why do you not think that definition could > > > > > not also be applied to the Christian concept of sin/obedience and > > > > > Hell/Heaven?> > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different > > > > > envelope.> > > > > > ...Bill!> > > > > > --- In > > > > > [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action > > > > > and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature).> > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > From: Bill! > > > > > <BillSmart@>> > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: > > > > > Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03> > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you > > > > > began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' > also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven and if you're > > 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill!> > > > > > > > --- In > > [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ is > > not at all surprising that you got a funny reaction from people > > surrounding you when you said you were interested in Buddhism. Try doing > > the same thing with Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this > > forum, which is less hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that karma is > > your own business, nobody else can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your requests and assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I term chaotic > zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say > everything is in chaos. On > > the other hand, you will also hear all kinds of Buddhist views here. I hope > > you have fun here. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > Anthony> > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________> > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@>> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08> > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you > > began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although technically > I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety of tv shows, movies, > etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Don't know why, but the > scenes with the shoalin temple > > and buddhist monks were always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > Although I > > haven't come right out and said to my family (except for my sister) that > > I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books and notes I leave to > > myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been encouraging. They kind of > > give a disgusted look or a groan when they see it that suggests that they > > are not happy about it. They are catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've > > known for years). When I finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a > > temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to > > my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, > > so I told her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism > > anymore, and that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't > > pleased.> > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker > > and boss at work. I get along great with both of them, known them for several > > years. My co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told > > her I was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew > > that about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up > > on buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing > > from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, > > didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing > > various books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one > > I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so > > I told him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a > > funny look.> > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've > > always figured buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected > > forms of philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. > > When I go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining > > to it, I haven't had any bad replies over a single question, and if any of > > you have ever been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that > > section. So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions > > from people I know.> > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same > > reactions from the people you knew when you were first learning about > > buddhism?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >> > > >
