Edgar, 1. Mountains are mountains 2. Mountains are not mountains 3. Mountains are not not mountains
Siska -----Original Message----- From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 07:47:15 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your friends & family react? Siska, 1. Mountains are mountains. 2. Mountains are not mountains. 3. Mountains are mountains. Edgar On Jan 15, 2012, at 7:18 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Hi Edgar, > > It isn't as it seems, just as it seems to exist? ;-) > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 08:44:35 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, > How did your friends & family react? > > Siska, > > Nonsense, everything exists. It just isn't as it seems.... > > Edgar > > > > On Jan 15, 2012, at 12:45 AM, [email protected] wrote: > >> Mike, >> >> In this regards, "Nothing exists, no exceptions". >> >> Siska >> >> From: mike brown <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:29:18 +0000 (GMT) >> To: <[email protected]> >> ReplyTo: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> friends family react? >> >> >> Siska, >> >> Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is just >> opinion. >> >> >> - Democritus >> >> >> Mike >> >> --- On Sat, 14/1/12, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> friends & family react? >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Saturday, 14 January, 2012, 23:17 >> >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> It took a while for me to figure this :-) I'm rather slow, perhaps lately, >> if not always. >> >> The idea that cause and effect is illusory is quite new to me. I remember >> Anthony mentioning it before, but didn't really sink in. I thought the >> concept of cause and effect is something that is parallel to dependent >> origination, which is to say that everything is simultaneously affecting >> many other things in such complicated manner that our mind cannot really >> grasp it. Even if it can, it is actually of no use. As you said, the mind >> needs it to 'feel' secure. >> >> I never thought it as illusory though. Whatever we think about it IS >> illusory. >> >> Siska >> >> From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> >> Sender: [email protected] >> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:19:25 -0000 >> To: <[email protected]> >> ReplyTo: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >> friends family react? >> >> >> Siska, >> >> Yes, the concept of cause-and-effect is illusory. >> >> The belief in cause-and-effect is an attempt by your discriminating mind to >> 'understand' reality, to 'make sense'of experience which is fundamentally >> chaotic. It is a process of breaking up wholistic experience (Just THIS!) >> into pieces, and then to categorize and even directly associating some >> pieces with others by assigning a dependent cause-and-effect relationship to >> these pairs or sets of pieces. The establishment of these cause-and-effect >> relationships are done to fit your needs at the time. They are not absolute, >> objective or real. They are relational, subjective and illusory - this is >> because they are dependent upon your dualistic concept of self/other. The >> illusion of cause-and-effect helps you feel more comfortable and gives you a >> certain sense of control of life. >> >> The concept of karma is a spritualized version of cause-and-effect which is >> usually thought of as purely a physical relationship. >> >> The letting go of this illusion is sometimes referred to in zen stories as >> 'leaping into the abyss', or 'taking a step off the 100-ft flagpole'. These >> are teachings telling you that you must let go of your attachments >> (espcially to logic and the belief in cause-and-effect), come out of your >> fantasy comfort zone, throw away your illusory security blanket and throw >> yourself completly into the stark unknown and unknowable. >> >> There's no comforting assurance of cause-and-effect there. Just THIS! >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: >>> >>> Hi Bill, >>> >>>> The killing is not the cause and the dieing the effect. >>> Would you then say that cause and effect is illusory? >>> >>> Siska >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> >>> Sender: [email protected] >>> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 08:18:32 >>> To: <[email protected]> >>> Reply-To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>> friends & family react? >>> >>> Anthony, >>> >>> When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than you'. >>> When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that karma exists >>> independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours (God's) be >>> done' you are implying that God exists independently of you. You are >>> implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of and/or >>> separate from you. >>> >>> I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their >>> supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate from >>> you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are >>> illusory. >>> >>> If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you loot, >>> there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing is not >>> the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or >>> described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! >>> >>> This is my experience...Bill! >>> >>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>> >>>> Bill, >>>>  >>>> The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other 'outside >>>> agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny karma, does >>>> that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or burning, does not >>>> have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of it. But that >>>> is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more realistic >>>> than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and looting will be out >>>> of control. In that case, believing in God is better than believing in >>>> nothing. >>>>  >>>> Anthony >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 >>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>> friends & family react? >>>> >>>> >>>>  >>>> Anthony, >>>> >>>> How are they different concepts? >>>> >>>> Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both exist as >>>> a concept in your mind. >>>> >>>> Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad (good deeds >>>> lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of [bad] karma >>>> leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise attributng >>>> the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an outside agency >>>> such as karma or God is also just packaging. >>>> >>>> It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. >>>> >>>> ...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Bill, >>>>>  >>>>> It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. >>>>>  >>>>> Anthony >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 >>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>> friends & family react? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  >>>>> Anthony, >>>>> >>>>> You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think that >>>>> definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of >>>>> sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? >>>>> >>>>> For me it's the same message in a different envelope. >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is action and >>>>>> reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha nature). >>>>>>  >>>>>> Anthony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>  >>>>>> Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to Heaven >>>>>> and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ItÃÆ'‚ is not at all surprising that you got a funny >>>>>>> reaction from people surrounding you when you said you were interested >>>>>>> in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with Moslems, and you get a >>>>>>> funnier response. Even in this forum, which is less hostile to >>>>>>> Buddhism, you find different views on it. >>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>> The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees to karma. >>>>>>> The difference between the two is the former insists that karma is your >>>>>>> own business, nobody else can help you change it. However, in Hinduism, >>>>>>> there are powerful deities who respond to your requests and assist you. >>>>>>> Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I term chaotic >>>>>>> zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. They say >>>>>>> everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will also hear all kinds >>>>>>> of Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. >>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>> Anthony >>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>>> From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 >>>>>>> Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did your >>>>>>> friends & family react? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ÃÆ'‚ >>>>>>> I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, just >>>>>>> recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although >>>>>>> technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety of >>>>>>> tv shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. >>>>>>> Don't know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist >>>>>>> monks were always my favorite. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Although I haven't come right out and said to my family (except for my >>>>>>> sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the books and >>>>>>> notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been >>>>>>> encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they >>>>>>> see it that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are >>>>>>> catholics. I'm an atheist (which they've known for years). When I >>>>>>> finally told my sister that I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got >>>>>>> disqusted and said "why? You'll never go with me to my church, but >>>>>>> you'll go to a buddhist church?" I didn't know what to say, so I told >>>>>>> her the truth, that I didn't feel anything for catholicism anymore, and >>>>>>> that it didn't feel like the right religion for me. She wasn't pleased. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at work. I get >>>>>>> along great with both of them, known them for several years. My >>>>>>> co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her I >>>>>>> was too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew that >>>>>>> about each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up on >>>>>>> buddhism lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing >>>>>>> from my family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and >>>>>>> disbelief, didn't say anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I >>>>>>> was discussing various books with another boss that we like to read, >>>>>>> and I mentioned one I'd been reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He >>>>>>> asked what it was about so I told him, and when I mentioned it has a >>>>>>> buddhist theme to it, he gave a funny look. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured buddhism to >>>>>>> be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of philosophy and >>>>>>> religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. When I go online to >>>>>>> Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining to it, I haven't >>>>>>> had any bad replies over a single question, and if any of you have ever >>>>>>> been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that section. So >>>>>>> it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from >>>>>>> people I know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you knew when >>>>>>> you were first learning about buddhism? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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