Why do assume the words weren't their own? Hui Neng's poem seems to have been...
Edgar On Jun 4, 2012, at 3:47 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Yes, both the sutras and the Gospels are supposed to have been written by > 'masters', but what made them 'masters'? Only that they were stenographers > for someone else? That's not a very strong credential for me. I guess you > could say their value was choosing WHAT to record, but they didn't even > comment on it. They just recorded it - supposedly. > > Anyway I won't argue that a lot of 'holy' writing aren't chock full of a lot > of good stuff, but if I'm being told things like that I'd like an opportunity > to discuss it first hand with the original author, not just read a cold, dead > page of words. > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > Not Buddha himself, but I thought they were thought to have been written by > > specific masters... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > On Jun 3, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I'm not sure what you mean. > > > > > > I'm sure you know that none of the sutras, or anything else for that > > > matter, was written by Buddha himself. The sutras at their best are > > > firsthand accounts of Buddha's teachings, much like the Gospels in the > > > New Testament are supposed to be firsthand accounts of Jesus' teachings. > > > > > > Just how close to 'firsthand' they actually are I really don't know. > > > These may have been handed down by word-of-mouth for generations before > > > someone put them in writing, and even at best they are someone else's > > > recollection and interpretation of what Buddha or Jesus said or did. And > > > worse yet for us they have all been filtered through language > > > translations, and in most cases several levels of those. And then there > > > certainly could have been 'censoring' or 'editing' of some of the > > > information by the then-established religious elite as we know there was > > > in the New Testament. > > > > > > That's why I'd rather just hear direct from any of you out there than be > > > directed to a quote from someone with whom I can't question or discuss > > > their thoughts. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > >> What about the Heart and Diamond Sutras though? > > >> > > >> Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> On Jun 2, 2012, at 8:21 PM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > >>> This is true in my experience. Most texts are written ABOUT zen > > >>> masters, no BY zen masters. There are some notable exceptions, but for > > >>> example Buddha himself left no writings (we know of). Neither did > > >>> important zen masters like Joshu. And of course Jesus left no personal > > >>> written teachings. > > >>> > > >>> ...Bill! > > >>> > > >>> --- In [email protected], Kristopher Grey <kris@> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> Not being able to read from those who have not written, this is your > > >>>> understanding of 'zen masters'. Most do not write. With other forms of > > >>>> Buddhism, same. Yet, there are more works than can easily be > > >>>> cataloged. > > >>>> Also notice how much is written ABOUT such 'masters', and about Buddha > > >>>> - > > >>>> and consider why this is so. > > >>>> > > >>>> K > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On 6/2/2012 8:42 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: > > >>>>> How come zen masters historically produced more words than any > > >>>>> Buddhist sects did? > > >>>>> Anthony > > >>>>> > > >>>>> *From:* Joe <desert_woodworker@> > > >>>>> *To:* [email protected] > > >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, 2 June 2012, 7:20 > > >>>>> *Subject:* [Zen] Re: News: Stanford scholar tracks meditation's > > >>>>> migration from ancient monasteries to modern yoga > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --- In [email protected] > > >>>>> <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > >>>>> "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Zen is nothing about which anything can be said? > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Probably the less said the better. People get entangled or biased. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> We can talk about zen PRACTICE, though, and the more said, and the > > >>>>> more practiced, the better. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --Joe / Tucson > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
