Kris, This by Bhante Gunaratana:
"Insight cannot be practiced while absorbed in jhana, since insight meditation requires investigation and observation, which are impossible when the mind is immersed in one-pointed absorption. But after emerging from the jhana, the mind is cleared of the hindrances, and the stillness and clarity that then result conduce to precise, penetrating insight." [my italics] I hope anyone can see that this is what I've been saying all along. Mike Ps I don't need a lecture on the futility of 'hope' as a wish projected into the future (which doesn't exist) yada yada yada... ; ) ________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 22:31 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi Kris, Quoting Bodhidharma to refute the place of samadhi/dhyana (jhana) is a bit like cross-examing Mitt Romney in the hope he'll say something constructive about free health care. Anyway, ... >Question: "What is a demon mind?" Answer: "Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi." >Question: "[What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move?" >Answer: "This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. The sutras attributable to Buddha mention mindfulness about a dozen times. Loving-kindness about a 100 times. Jhanas over a 1000 times. Staring at a wall 0 times. >This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of >quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. Yes, exactly like zazen. >They are not to be valued. Not in themselves, no. But as a support to insight wisdom they are almost indispensable. >These are created dharmas, It's funny how the 4 jhanas follow the same method for everyone to enter them, and when they are entered they follow the same pattern from first into second, from second into third etc. This is true for everyone (the well-practiced adept can move thru them quicker and enter them almost at will). Without the hindrances, the mind moves to an ever still and pure state until the mind disappears all together. >dharmas that will be destroyed again, Of course! And this is exactly the insight that wisdom comes from. All arises and passes. We experience the kind of bliss in jhanas that cannot be experienced in day to day life. We use mindfulness to penetrate the meaning of craving experientially - not just intellectually. >not ultimate Dharma. Ultimate Dharma just is. Bohdidharma, at least in this quote, seems to be mistaking the raft for the shore. >If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. I much prefer Dogen's '"To study the way is to study the self; to study the self is to forget the self; to forget the self is to be enlightened by the 10000 things.". To study the self is exactly what Vipassana does. If you remember in a recent post I said that to understand suffering is to realise that it is not suffering that disappears, but the self that disappears. >The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit." Further: "If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. I was listening to a video talk by the late Ayya Khema and she said that after teaching hundreds of people the jhanas, she doesn't know of one person who has become addicted to jhana meditation, or values them higher than insight wisdom. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35. Buddha rocks! Mike ________________________________ From: Kristopher Grey <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 20:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Samadhi I'm not one to quote often, but came across this bit on samadhi today: Question: "What is a demon mind?" Answer: "Closing the eyes [in the cross-legged sitting posture] and entering samadhi." Question: "[What if] I gather the mind into dhyana so that it does not move?" Answer: "This is bondage samadhi. It is useless. This holds even for the four dhyanas, each of which is merely one stage of quiescence from which you will return to disturbance again. They are not to be valued. These are created dharmas, dharmas that will be destroyed again, not ultimate Dharma. If you can understand that intrinsically there is neither quiescence nor disturbance, then you will be able to exist of yourself. The one who is not drawn into quiescence and disturbance is the man of spirit." Further: "If one is capable of not seizing on interpretations, not creating the mind of delusion, and not esteeming profound knowledge, then he will be a peaceful person. If there is one dharma to be esteemed or valued, this dharma will be the one most capable of binding and killing you, and you will fall into having mind. This is an unreliable state of affairs. - Bodhidharma Antholgy, pg 35.
