right bill... you win if that is the game...whatever... merle
Merle, My comments in the parts of you post that refer to me are below: --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > ...bill...you have the dictionary definition of art..yet you fail to see > there is any logic in this definition..strange... [Bill!] What other definition of art do you suggest I consider? I know it might be against your principals, but how about giving us your definition of art? > ... i would not tell that to leonardo da vinci...you are constantly > interpreting facts to suit your own version of reality [Bill!] Leonardo da Vinci is dead; and he merely CREATED art. He did not publish a dictionary nor even offer a DEFINITION of art (to my knowledge). And yes I do interpret 'facts' to try to put them into my logic model of whatever we're talking about. Don't you? > as for the third eye..what and you being a zen buddhist ? [Bill!] I am not a Buddhist. I practice zen. You are relatively new the this forum so might not know that. A very brief explanation is that I do not consider 'zen' as being an exclusive sub-set of Zen Buddhism. I don't consider 'zen' as being a religion (or a philosophy). I do consider Zen Buddhism as being a religion. Buddhism is the religious wrapping put around zen and presented as Zen Buddhism. >  come on ..check out a mandala.. > you'll need your third eye to interpret the meaning [Bill!] Mandalas, Third Eyes, and all the other Buddhist Precepts, dogma, etc... are part of that religious wrapping. They have nothing really to do with zen. ...Bill! > >  > Well I don't find much utility in this particular definition; the function of > art may not be known precisely, but it surely has to do with things such as > conveying some communication of the interestingness of life from one human to > another.  > > I encourage my kids to make art when feelings too strong for words are > gripping them (and as a general practice in learning how to deal with the > cussedness of materiality)  I put up art to shape a location into an > expression of my particularity and appreciation of life. > > The forms become art to the creator and the audience insofar as they fulfill > some function in the brains of those folks. > > > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Sep 7, 2012, at 6:52, Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > Bill and Merle, > > > > > >If I must, my definition of art, as a long time art dealer among other > >things, is a work in which the form rather than the function is emphasized. > > > > > >From my site at http://EdgarLOwen.info > > > > > >ORIGINS: The concept of art is a human invention, therefore it is > >possible to define art in any way one chooses, just so long as the > >definition is useful and applied consistently. I offer a definition based in > >human perception that I believe useful and quite general. In my view, art > >has to do with the distinction of form and function. Art concentrates on the > >form of things, and details of form such as symmetry and balance that elicit > >experiences such as that of beauty. Beauty has traditionally been the > >experiential goal of art, but more recently this has been extended to other > >responses such as disgust, shock, and other emotions. Nevertheless what is > >constant in art is the concern with form as opposed to function. (I'm > >including color here since form is often rendered with color as in painting.) > >Now everything has form, so art can be seen wherever one looks, if one looks > >at the form rather than the thing itself. Eg. the beauty of a horse's form > >as it gallops, as opposed to it being a flesh and blood beast of burden. One > >could restrict the definition to a product of human creation, but I would > >rather just refer to that as 'human art'. We wish to avoid the problem of > >not seeing art in the creations of weaver or bower birds, or in the beauty > >of nature. After all, it is common usage to refer to beautiful form of > >whatever origin as art. > >So what is human art then? Human art is an object primarily created for its > >form, rather than any attendant function. A painting is pure form, that is > >its only function. So something that is divorced from function is art, since > >we must consider only its form. Therefore a toilet in an art gallery becomes > >art because we cannot pee in it. It is isolated from its function so that we > >are forced to consider only its form. Therefore art is form divorced from > >function, or an object whose primary function is to display its form. > > > > > >CRITIQUE: Now the question of what is 'good' art versus 'bad' art is > >another question entirely. I have my doubts about the toilet in the art > >gallery being 'good' art, nevertheless I can certainly admire the form of a > >beautiful toilet. Recall that the 'artist' who submitted the toilet to the > >gallery did not actually create its form, therefore he might be said to have > >pointed out its artistic merit, but certainly was not the actual artist who > >created it. On the other hand by placing the toilet in the gallery we are > >forced to confront its function in an abstract way, we are forced to > >consider the function, and all its attendant meaning to us, in a purely > >formal sense independent of any participation in that function. While this > >can be interesting and might in some cases have merit, I still find it > >rather unconvincing as art. Perhaps those who have strong issues with peeing > >may disagree? > >Picasso defined art as 'lies that tell the truth'. That's a pretty good > >definition, even though I don't consider Picasso much of an artist. > >Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Merle and Edgar, > >> > >>Before I chuck it in for the night I thought I'd go to Merle's suggested > >>Source of all Truth - the dictionary. > >> > >>Here are the definitions of 'art' and 'engineering' copied from > >>Merriam-Webster Online. I trust you'll accept these definitions without > >>smearing them with labels of 'outlandish', 'emotional' or (heaven forbid) > >>'illogical'. > >> > >>My [I-told-you-so-comments] are in brackets. > >> > >>Definition of ART [Please note the absence of any mention of 'logic', > >>'structure' or 'purpose'] > >>1 > >>: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation > >>2 > >>a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural: LIBERAL > >>ARTSb archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP > >>3 > >>: an occupation requiring knowledge or skill > >>4 > >>a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the > >>production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced > >> > >>Definition of ENGINEERING [Please note the emphasis on 'science' and > >>'mathematics' (which are based on 'logic' and assume 'structure'), and > >>'purpose' ("...useful to people") > >>1 > >>: the activities or function of an engineer > >>2 > >>a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of > >>matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people > >> > >>So, what's next? More 'third eye' suggestions? > >> > >>...Bill! > >> > >>--- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > >>> > >>> Merle, > >>> > >>> My remarks were not outlandish nor emotional or illogical. > >>> > >>> My remarks were my opinion based on my experience. > >>> > >>> What 'facts' do you think I should check? Should I have checked someone > >>> else's opinion before I expressed mine? > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >  rubbish bill > >>> > .i would not say that to cezanne, mondrian kandinsky etc .,,just a few > >>> > artists. > >>> > ..check cubist theories might give you some insight > >>> > .please  check facts before making outlandish one off remarks that are > >>> > highly emotional and totally illogical..merle > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >  > >>> > Logic plays a big part in engineering, not art...Bill! > >>> > > >>> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >  bill..artists can be logical too... logic plays a big part in my > >>> > > art...merle > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > > >
