Edgar, I think you see Mara somewhat differently to how I see it. You seem to see Mara as the illusion of forms, but understanding them as illusion is still reality and not apart of the All which is Buddha Nature. Fair enough, but i think this is more of a Mahayana understanding of Mara. I see Mara as originally understood - the temptation of the senses that leads us to suffering. I can see the overlaps tho, so I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm sure we both see the world as contingent and consciousness arises differently depending on what condition presents. For example, If I hear the sound of high heels coming towards me, my mind begins formulating the idea of 'female' and 'beauty' 'desire' etc. My body follows along and so my heart beat increases, adrenalin is released along with some serotonin etc etc. I then build a story/mental formation onto this and might start imagining meeting this woman (still unseen!) and... well, you know the rest. All from the sound of shoes!! This is the meaning of Mara to me - a tempting of the senses that leads us into suffering (self-inflicted!) and can occur from moment to moment as new conditions present. I guess I'm operating from the micro while you're doing so from the macro. But then again, it never hurts to see the bigger picture.
Mike ________________________________ From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 11:35 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA Mike and Kris, This is consistent with what I say, that Mara (illusion or the world of forms) is the WAY THAT BUDDHA NATURE MANIFESTS IN OUR WORLD. Properly realized Mara is not something apart from Buddha Nature but a manifestation of Buddha Nature. Mara is only illusion when taken for the whole of reality rather than being realized as a manifestation of Buddha Nature itself. Edgar On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:28 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >Kris, > > >>What you seek to attend to, is none other than that attending. Abiding as >>whatever presents. > > >I agree. This is just another way of saying that consciousness arises with >whatever presents from moment to moment (conditioned). But it's how we react, >or not, to these moments that is the crux of whether we suffer... or not. > > > >>There is no Buddha without Mara. > > >Again, I agree. I think there's a very shallow belief in Buddhism, including >zen, that when someone becomes 'enlightened' they will experience a life free >of attachments, desires and craving. If conditions are right, we can >experience moments of liberation, but we live in a contingent world and so >always need to pay attention to each and every moment. > > > >>All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > > >Nice. > > >>The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be mindful you >>don't reject it. > > >Well, you know what they say about keeping your friends close to you, but your >enemies closer ; ) > > >Mike > > > > > > >________________________________ > From: Kristopher Grey <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Monday, 10 September 2012, 2:55 >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: THE BASIC TEACHING OF BUDDHA > > > >On 9/9/2012 3:34 PM, mike brown wrote: > > >>Kris, >> >>>The nature of this realized, cessation is effortless. >> >>We're contingent beings in a contingent world. We're born, we grow sick, we grow old, we die. In a contingent world we don't know what's just around the corner ready to befall us. In order to "realise" suffering fully we need to pay mindful attention to what impacts on us - not to just the external stimuli, but also to how we react to them inwardly. >While all this is so, these are not separate. 'No independent origination". Contingent. What you seek to attend to, is none other than that attending. Abiding as whatever presents. > >Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort to maintain (Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort to maintain [Abiding is not optional. Delusions of not abiding take great effort to maintain.].)... > >If you realize at least 1/3 of that last bit - your mindfulness is sufficient. ;) > > >Even after Buddha's defeat of Mara, he was still 'visited' by Mara from time >to time. life happens moment to moment and no over-riding state of >mind/knowledge/understanding/Enlightenment will eradicate the potential to >suffer at any time. All we can do is constantly practice mindfulness until our >mind isn't so restless and we can be more aware of those first stirrings of >the mind to be so reactive. >> >There is no Buddha without Mara. Neither victor nor vanquished was born to fight nor dies in the struggle. To conquer delusion is see it was never otherwise. Samsara is Nirvana. No other realization/no realization of other. > >All teachings of Buddha are carried and delivered by Mara. > >The Middle Way cannot be entered without Mara's invitation. Be mindful you don't reject it. > >KG > > > > >
