Edgar, Yes, I thought so too...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Well, that's telling! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 23, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > What 'intellectual koan'. I went through over 60 koans in my koan study and > > never encountered and 'intellectual koan'. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, Merle and Bill, > > > > > > Sure that's my take too, but my POINT is that you have to get through the > > > intellectual koan to get there. > > > > > > Jeeze, I wish Bill and Mike would some day take the trouble to understand > > > the points I'm making instead of arguing against the wind... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 22, 2012, at 5:09 AM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, Bill!'s take is my take also. Buddha Nature is seen directly > > > > without the intervention of the intellect. If you mean an intuitive > > > > understanding, then yes. > > > > > > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Monday, 22 October 2012, 6:25 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: genius > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill.... rubbish..that's your take!..merle > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > I'm saying understanding has nothing at all to do with experiencing > > > > Buddha Nature...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > bill!..are you saying your zen practise is superior to edgar's zen > > > > > practise, eh?.. > > > > > tut tut..  one man up manship games... > > > > > shame on you Bill!..you the enlightened one! > > > > >  merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > Edgar could be a genius, but that won't help his zen practice...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àbill!..i can see where you are coming from and also where edgar > > > > > > is coming from..so where am i coming from? > > > > > > i can understand and relate to what you both are saying > > > > > > > > > > > > àgod father BILL!.. aldous huxley is a genius... > > > > > > ànext you'll be telling me your bored with leonardo da vinci > > > > > > àthe genius àare then not your cup of tea? > > > > > > > > > > > > àmaybe edgar is a genius? > > > > > > àmerle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar and I disagree on fundamental issues. In his post below I > > > > > > agree only with the first paragraph. The rest of it, which > > > > > > basically says some attachments are benign (actually, even > > > > > > necessary) and some aren't, I disagree with. And his last sentence > > > > > > "Zen is not as simple as many imagine!" is outright egregious. Zen > > > > > > is the most simple thing you can imagine. IMO Edgar makes is > > > > > > complicated by trying to UNDERSTAND and EXPLAIN it all the time. > > > > > > There is no need for, in fact IMO there is a need NOT TO, try to > > > > > > understand zen. > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't understand zen, you practice zen. > > > > > > > > > > > > My reading of the ISLAND has bogged down midway in Chapter 4. It > > > > > > seems very tedious and somewhat juvenile to me, but I'll keep going > > > > > > for at least another couple chapters to see what might come next. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!..what is it that you and edgar disagree on?... is this just > > > > > > > childish one up manship? > > > > > > > Ãâàas we are all ONE > > > > > > > Ãâàthen stands to reason..edgar and you are still on the > > > > > > > same coin so to speak > > > > > > > Ãâàhow is your island reading going ? > > > > > > > Ãâàmerle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am 'listening' (reading actually), but there's nothing in this > > > > > > > post for me to learn, nothing new anyway. I already am aware of > > > > > > > how much Edgar and I disagree on zen - and I knew that already. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyes bill!..edgar is back.. > > > > > > > > edgar is on the cutting edge..are you listening?... and need i > > > > > > > > say learning?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > Suresh, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Attachment is a very valuable evolutionary survival mechanism. > > > > > > > > It's a fundamental part of human nature similar to what we > > > > > > > > share with other species. With no attachments individual humans > > > > > > > > would have no motivation or direction and would not survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not attachments per se. We all use attachments > > > > > > > > every day to go about our lives successfully. That's what > > > > > > > > enables people to sustain material success in life. The problem > > > > > > > > is excessive attachment, or attachment to your attachments. The > > > > > > > > problem is excessive attachments THAT DO NOT MESH WITH WHAT IS > > > > > > > > REAL or attainable.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example a man's attachment to THE IDEA OF an unattainable > > > > > > > > woman, or an unattainable position in society. Attachment to > > > > > > > > the unattainable causes suffering.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However attachment to the ATTAINABLE maintains physical and > > > > > > > > social life.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However things can change. When one loses something one was > > > > > > > > attached to realization demands changing one's attachment to it > > > > > > > > to mirror the new state of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Zen is not as simple as many imagine! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 20, 2012, at 1:38 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bill > > > > > > > > >Why do human liked to get attached? > > > > > > > > >What is the root cause for attachment? > > > > > > > > >Suresh > > > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 2012 8:38 AM, "Merle Lester" <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! > > > > > > > > > (merlewiitpom@) Add cleanup rule | More info > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàso how does one NOT be attached to these > > > > > > > > >>emotions eh?..merle > > > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > >>Merle, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>No, these in-and-of themselves are not attachments. They are > > > > > > > > >>concepts (mental models), and in some case emotions - and it > > > > > > > > >>is not these that cause suffering. It is ATTACHMENTS to these > > > > > > > > >>that cause suffering. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>...Bill! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >>--- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > > > > > >><merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthanks..are they > > > > > > > > >>> attachments?... merle > > > > > > > > >>> Merle, > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> Love is not exactly the OPPOSITE of hate, but love/hate is > > > > > > > > >>> a dualistic pair - like good/bad, tall/short, hot/cold, > > > > > > > > >>> yin/yang, etc... > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> ...Bill! > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester > > > > > > > > >>> <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > >>> > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > >>> > tell me more BILLLL....... Love is it the opposite of > > > > > > > > >>> > hate????? merle > > > > > > > > >>> > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > > > >>> > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > I agree with James. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > As with all emotions like fear, anger, love, hate it is > > > > > > > > >>> > not the emotion that is the real problem, it is the > > > > > > > > >>> > ATTACHMENT to the emotion. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > --- In [email protected], "James W. Meritt" > > > > > > > > >>> > <JWMeritt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > Not so sure getting rid of fear is a good thing. I see > > > > > > > > >>> > > having fear, but modifying how you use and react to it > > > > > > > > >>> > > as a good thing. > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > James W. Meritt > > > > > > > > >>> > > CISSP, CISA, NSA IAM, PMP > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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