Edgar, What 'intellectual koan'. I went through over 60 koans in my koan study and never encountered and 'intellectual koan'.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, Merle and Bill, > > Sure that's my take too, but my POINT is that you have to get through the > intellectual koan to get there. > > Jeeze, I wish Bill and Mike would some day take the trouble to understand the > points I'm making instead of arguing against the wind... > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 22, 2012, at 5:09 AM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > Merle, Bill!'s take is my take also. Buddha Nature is seen directly without > > the intervention of the intellect. If you mean an intuitive understanding, > > then yes. > > > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, 22 October 2012, 6:25 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: genius > > > > > > > > bill.... rubbish..that's your take!..merle > > > > Merle, > > > > I'm saying understanding has nothing at all to do with experiencing Buddha > > Nature...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > bill!..are you saying your zen practise is superior to edgar's zen > > > practise, eh?.. > > > tut tut..  one man up manship games... > > > shame on you Bill!..you the enlightened one! > > >  merle > > > > > > > > >  > > > Merle, > > > > > > Edgar could be a genius, but that won't help his zen practice...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > àbill!..i can see where you are coming from and also where edgar is > > > > coming from..so where am i coming from? > > > > i can understand and relate to what you both are saying > > > > > > > > àgod father BILL!.. aldous huxley is a genius... > > > > ànext you'll be telling me your bored with leonardo da vinci > > > > àthe genius àare then not your cup of tea? > > > > > > > > àmaybe edgar is a genius? > > > > àmerle > > > > > > > > > > > > à> > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > Edgar and I disagree on fundamental issues. In his post below I agree > > > > only with the first paragraph. The rest of it, which basically says > > > > some attachments are benign (actually, even necessary) and some aren't, > > > > I disagree with. And his last sentence "Zen is not as simple as many > > > > imagine!" is outright egregious. Zen is the most simple thing you can > > > > imagine. IMO Edgar makes is complicated by trying to UNDERSTAND and > > > > EXPLAIN it all the time. There is no need for, in fact IMO there is a > > > > need NOT TO, try to understand zen. > > > > > > > > You don't understand zen, you practice zen. > > > > > > > > My reading of the ISLAND has bogged down midway in Chapter 4. It seems > > > > very tedious and somewhat juvenile to me, but I'll keep going for at > > > > least another couple chapters to see what might come next. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!..what is it that you and edgar disagree on?... is this just > > > > > childish one up manship? > > > > > Ãâàas we are all ONE > > > > > Ãâàthen stands to reason..edgar and you are still on the same > > > > > coin so to speak > > > > > Ãâàhow is your island reading going ? > > > > > Ãâàmerle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâà> > > > > Merle, > > > > > > > > > > I am 'listening' (reading actually), but there's nothing in this post > > > > > for me to learn, nothing new anyway. I already am aware of how much > > > > > Edgar and I disagree on zen - and I knew that already. > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàyes bill!..edgar is back.. > > > > > > edgar is on the cutting edge..are you listening?... and need i say > > > > > > learning?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > Suresh, > > > > > > > > > > > > Attachment is a very valuable evolutionary survival mechanism. It's > > > > > > a fundamental part of human nature similar to what we share with > > > > > > other species. With no attachments individual humans would have no > > > > > > motivation or direction and would not survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is not attachments per se. We all use attachments every > > > > > > day to go about our lives successfully. That's what enables people > > > > > > to sustain material success in life. The problem is excessive > > > > > > attachment, or attachment to your attachments. The problem is > > > > > > excessive attachments THAT DO NOT MESH WITH WHAT IS REAL or > > > > > > attainable.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > For example a man's attachment to THE IDEA OF an unattainable > > > > > > woman, or an unattainable position in society. Attachment to the > > > > > > unattainable causes suffering.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > However attachment to the ATTAINABLE maintains physical and social > > > > > > life.ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > However things can change. When one loses something one was > > > > > > attached to realization demands changing one's attachment to it to > > > > > > mirror the new state of reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Zen is not as simple as many imagine! > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 20, 2012, at 1:38 AM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Bill > > > > > > >Why do human liked to get attached? > > > > > > >What is the root cause for attachment? > > > > > > >Suresh > > > > > > >On Oct 20, 2012 8:38 AM, "Merle Lester" <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (merlewiitpom@) > > > > > > > Add cleanup rule | More info > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàso how does one NOT be attached to these > > > > > > >>emotions eh?..merle > > > > > > >>ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > >>Merle, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>No, these in-and-of themselves are not attachments. They are > > > > > > >>concepts (mental models), and in some case emotions - and it is > > > > > > >>not these that cause suffering. It is ATTACHMENTS to these that > > > > > > >>cause suffering. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>...Bill! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >>--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > >>wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàthanks..are they > > > > > > >>> attachments?... merle > > > > > > >>> Merle, > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> Love is not exactly the OPPOSITE of hate, but love/hate is a > > > > > > >>> dualistic pair - like good/bad, tall/short, hot/cold, yin/yang, > > > > > > >>> etc... > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> ...Bill! > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > >>> > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > >>> > tell me more BILLLL....... Love is it the opposite of > > > > > > >>> > hate????? merle > > > > > > >>> > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ > > > > > > >>> > 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà> > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > I agree with James. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > As with all emotions like fear, anger, love, hate it is not > > > > > > >>> > the emotion that is the real problem, it is the ATTACHMENT to > > > > > > >>> > the emotion. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > ...Bill! > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > --- In [email protected], "James W. Meritt" > > > > > > >>> > <JWMeritt@> wrote: > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > Not so sure getting rid of fear is a good thing. I see > > > > > > >>> > > having fear, but modifying how you use and react to it as a > > > > > > >>> > > good thing. > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > James W. Meritt > > > > > > >>> > > CISSP, CISA, NSA IAM, PMP > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
