ah ha... billlllllllll we have approached "the united we stand...divided we fall"...merle
Merle, You're using a lot of instances of the indefinite pronoun 'it' in your question below so I'm not really sure what you're asking. I'll assume 'it' refers to 'zen' when you use 'practice' and 'Buddha Nature' when you use 'experience'. Also I'm really not sure what you mean when you use the term 'zen' because you throw that term around very casually. But, here goes anyway... IMO... Experiencing Buddha Nature is not a prerequisite for practicing zen. You can practice zen before and after you realize Buddha Nature, and can practice zen regardless of whether you ever realize Buddha Nature. Two good examples of this are mindfulness and zazen (shikantaza). ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > > >  so Billllllllllllll if you practise zen...you'd have to experience it to > know you are practising it eh? merle >  > Merle, > > Lots to cover...I've embedded my responses in the body of your text... > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > bill!.. > > so what is it exactly what you are attempting to tell me Bill!... > Just THIS! > > > by the way having to add an exclamation mark is very painful.. > > means i have to do shift.....that's not my style.. > > so it will have to be billllllllll...... > >  hey looks like a bar code on the grocery item eh? > > A little... > > >  billllllllllllllllllll..................... > >  so you have told me over and over again we must all have instructions.. > > well hallo billlllllllllllllll with the bar code name... > > i am the teacher... > > how many times have i hinted at this and you do not believe me!... > > I didn't count them. Many times. > > >  don't you have faith in me?.. > > No. > > > don't trust me? > > No. > > > sensual ..mmmm interesting.. > > i was of the understanding through realisation and your most power packed > > instructions > > that we must under all costs detach ourselves from the senses... > > as they are attachments and can hinder realisation?.. > > Absolutely not. Do not detach yourself from your senses. They are how you > experience. They are the gateway to Buddha Nature. > > > so what are we left with mind!... > > Drop the mind and you are left with only senses - only experience - Just THIS! > > > do you hate your mind? > > No. > > >  somewhere along the track you feel mind is a hinderance and must not be > > tolerated!.. > > ATTACHMENT to the mind is a hindrance to realizing Buddha Nature, not the > mind itself. > > > look at this way if one looses one's mind through an illness can one still > > experience zen? > > You don't EXPERIENCE zen, you PRACTICE zen. You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature. > And yes, anyone that is able to have sensual experience can/is realizing > Buddha Nature. > > ...Bill! > > >  merle > > > > > >  > > Bill, > > > > There is no "transmission" of Zen from person to person. There is only > > pointing. Realization does NOT come from any other person. It comes from > > directly confronting reality and seeing it as it actually is... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 27, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >  > > >Merle, > > > > > >We stress 'instructions' here because this is a forum dedicated to Zen > > >Buddhism. Zen Buddhism has a history of being perpetuated by a very > > >intimate, one-to-one teacher/student relationship which results in a > > >mind-to-mind transmission. The first example of that I have ever heard of > > >is Siddhartha's mind-to-mind transmission (realization of Buddha Nature) > > >to Mahakashapa at Vulture Peak. > > > > > >'Sensual' means 'having to do with the senses'. It's from the same root > > >as is 'sentient' as in 'all sentient beings have Buddha Nature'. > > >Our discriminating mind divides the senses into 5 categories: sight, > > >hearing, smell, taste and feel. > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > >> bill!..you are obsessed with instructions from some one else: why? > > >> because that is the way you did this..so we all flow with you? > > >>  why a teacher?.... are we not all teachers unto to ourselves?... > > >>  please explain sensual.... > > >> merle > > >>  > > >> Edgar, Merle and Joe, > > >> > > >> Of course you can experience Buddha Nature 'on your own'. You could > > >> build a Space Shuttle 'on your own', by trial and error, or you could > > >> take advantage of the teachings and advice of those who have already > > >> built one. Both Siddhartha and Jesus (according to the accounts we > > >> have)were precocious children and yet even they struggled their whole > > >> life to realize what we (or at least I) now call 'Buddha Nature'. > > >> > > >> Siddhartha is said to have first recognized life was suffering and > > >> wanted to discover how to alleviate it. He first tried studying > > >> (rationality), then scriptures (faith), then asceticism (body) and found > > >> no relief. He finally swore to just sit under a tree until he > > >> discovered who to alleviate suffering, and not to get up until he did - > > >> or died. > > >> > > >> As the story goes on the 40th morning he saw the light from the a star > > >> as it rose above the horizon just before daybreak. It was then he > > >> realized what I now call 'Buddha Nature'. > > >> > > >> Seeing the light was a sensual experience - not an understanding or an > > >> act of faith. > > >> > > >> Anyone can do this by themselves as Siddhartha did or Jesus - but it is > > >> much more likely you will be able to do this with the guidance of a > > >> teacher. > > >> > > >> ...Bill! > > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ joe..what edgar says makes sense...who was > > >> > buddha's teacher? who was christ's teacher?..merle > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ > > >> > Joe, > > >> > > > >> > You claim that "you cannot do the work to awaken on your own". > > >> > > > >> > O really, then who pray tell was Buddha's teacher since he had no > > >> > human teacher? > > >> > > > >> > Give up? > > >> > > > >> > Answer. It was reality as I've been trying to explain to you. > > >> > > > >> > I prove my point... > > >> > > > >> > Edgar > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Joe wrote: > > >> > > > >> > ÃÆ'‚ > > >> > >Edgar, > > >> > > > > >> > >No, Edgar, it is not BS. > > >> > > > > >> > >(If you need someone to attack, try Paintball). > > >> > > > > >> > >A lot of self-enlightened fools traipse the streets of the world. > > >> > >They are not awake. Are you one? No, I think you worked with a > > >> > >teacher, once. > > >> > > > > >> > >The methods of Zen are Medicine, and the Teacher is Medicine, too. > > >> > >So is a Sangha. > > >> > > > > >> > >You cannot do the work to awaken on your own. The fact that you > > >> > >think it is on "your" own is what keeps you in the small bottle, and > > >> > >prevents You from flowing out to expand to the walls of the infinite > > >> > >aquarium. > > >> > > > > >> > >Take the medicine; awaken; be well; and *then* your last line is > > >> > >finally true. Not before. > > >> > > > > >> > >Of course not everybody wants to or can do that, even if it means > > >> > >never awakening. But when these fools represent themselves as > > >> > >masters and demean or deprecate Practice, they are not to be suffered > > >> > >gladly, nor suffered at all. > > >> > > > > >> > >Yes, it's everywhere. So are the unoxidizable tools of awakening, > > >> > >waiting in the shed, available to you and to everyone if you want to > > >> > >see a change. > > >> > > > > >> > >Go for it! > > >> > > > > >> > >Or maybe you've done this at some time, and still remember it. > > >> > > > > >> > >--Joe > > >> > > > > >> > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Joe, > > >> > >> > > >> > >> This is BS. > > >> > >> [snip] > > >> > >> Zen is not to be found in a teacher or monastery. It's everywhere > > >> > >> right in front of your nose.. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >
