so Billllllllllllll if you practise zen...you'd have to experience it to know
you are practising it eh? merle
Merle,
Lots to cover...I've embedded my responses in the body of your text...
--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> bill!..
> so what is it exactly what you are attempting to tell me Bill!...
Just THIS!
> by the way having to add an exclamation mark is very painful..
> means i have to do shift.....that's not my style..
> so it will have to be billllllllll......
> Â hey looks like a bar code on the grocery item eh?
A little...
> Â billllllllllllllllllll.....................
> Â so you have told me over and over again we must all have instructions..
> well hallo billlllllllllllllll with the bar code name...
> i am the teacher...
> how many times have i hinted at this and you do not believe me!...
I didn't count them. Many times.
> Â don't you have faith in me?..
No.
> don't trust me?
No.
> sensual ..mmmm interesting..
> i was of the understanding through realisation and your most power packed
> instructionsÂ
> that we must under all costs detach ourselves from the senses...Â
> as they are attachments and can hinder realisation?..
Absolutely not. Do not detach yourself from your senses. They are how you
experience. They are the gateway to Buddha Nature.
> so what are we left with mind!...
Drop the mind and you are left with only senses - only experience - Just THIS!
> do you hate your mind?
No.
> Â somewhere along the track you feel mind is a hinderance and must not be
> tolerated!..
ATTACHMENT to the mind is a hindrance to realizing Buddha Nature, not the mind
itself.
> look at this way if one looses one's mind through an illness can one still
> experience zen?
You don't EXPERIENCE zen, you PRACTICE zen. You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature. And
yes, anyone that is able to have sensual experience can/is realizing Buddha
Nature.
...Bill!
> Â merle
>
>
> Â
> Bill,
>
> There is no "transmission" of Zen from person to person. There is only
> pointing. Realization does NOT come from any other person. It comes from
> directly confronting reality and seeing it as it actually is...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 27, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> Â
> >Merle,
> >
> >We stress 'instructions' here because this is a forum dedicated to Zen
> >Buddhism. Zen Buddhism has a history of being perpetuated by a very
> >intimate, one-to-one teacher/student relationship which results in a
> >mind-to-mind transmission. The first example of that I have ever heard of
> >is Siddhartha's mind-to-mind transmission (realization of Buddha Nature) to
> >Mahakashapa at Vulture Peak.
> >
> >'Sensual' means 'having to do with the senses'. It's from the same root as
> >is 'sentient' as in 'all sentient beings have Buddha Nature'.
> >Our discriminating mind divides the senses into 5 categories: sight,
> >hearing, smell, taste and feel.
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >>
> >> bill!..you are obsessed with instructions from some one else: why? because
> >> that is the way you did this..so we all flow with you?
> >>  why a teacher?.... are we not all teachers unto to ourselves?...
> >>  please explain sensual....
> >> merle
> >> ÂÂ
> >> Edgar, Merle and Joe,
> >>
> >> Of course you can experience Buddha Nature 'on your own'. You could build
> >> a Space Shuttle 'on your own', by trial and error, or you could take
> >> advantage of the teachings and advice of those who have already built one.
> >> Both Siddhartha and Jesus (according to the accounts we have)were
> >> precocious children and yet even they struggled their whole life to
> >> realize what we (or at least I) now call 'Buddha Nature'.
> >>
> >> Siddhartha is said to have first recognized life was suffering and wanted
> >> to discover how to alleviate it. He first tried studying (rationality),
> >> then scriptures (faith), then asceticism (body) and found no relief. He
> >> finally swore to just sit under a tree until he discovered who to
> >> alleviate suffering, and not to get up until he did - or died.
> >>
> >> As the story goes on the 40th morning he saw the light from the a star as
> >> it rose above the horizon just before daybreak. It was then he realized
> >> what I now call 'Buddha Nature'.
> >>
> >> Seeing the light was a sensual experience - not an understanding or an act
> >> of faith.
> >>
> >> Anyone can do this by themselves as Siddhartha did or Jesus - but it is
> >> much more likely you will be able to do this with the guidance of a
> >> teacher.
> >>
> >> ...Bill!
> >>
> >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  joe..what edgar says makes sense...who was buddha's teacher?
> >> > who was christ's teacher?..merle
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ÂÂÂ
> >> > Joe,
> >> >
> >> > You claim that "you cannot do the work to awaken on your own".
> >> >
> >> > O really, then who pray tell was Buddha's teacher since he had no human
> >> > teacher?
> >> >
> >> > Give up?
> >> >
> >> > Answer. It was reality as I've been trying to explain to you.
> >> >
> >> > I prove my point...
> >> >
> >> > Edgar
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Joe wrote:
> >> >
> >> > ÂÂÂ
> >> > >Edgar,
> >> > >
> >> > >No, Edgar, it is not BS.
> >> > >
> >> > >(If you need someone to attack, try Paintball).
> >> > >
> >> > >A lot of self-enlightened fools traipse the streets of the world. They
> >> > >are not awake. Are you one? No, I think you worked with a teacher,
> >> > >once.
> >> > >
> >> > >The methods of Zen are Medicine, and the Teacher is Medicine, too. So
> >> > >is a Sangha.
> >> > >
> >> > >You cannot do the work to awaken on your own. The fact that you think
> >> > >it is on "your" own is what keeps you in the small bottle, and prevents
> >> > >You from flowing out to expand to the walls of the infinite aquarium.
> >> > >
> >> > >Take the medicine; awaken; be well; and *then* your last line is
> >> > >finally true. Not before.
> >> > >
> >> > >Of course not everybody wants to or can do that, even if it means never
> >> > >awakening. But when these fools represent themselves as masters and
> >> > >demean or deprecate Practice, they are not to be suffered gladly, nor
> >> > >suffered at all.
> >> > >
> >> > >Yes, it's everywhere. So are the unoxidizable tools of awakening,
> >> > >waiting in the shed, available to you and to everyone if you want to
> >> > >see a change.
> >> > >
> >> > >Go for it!
> >> > >
> >> > >Or maybe you've done this at some time, and still remember it.
> >> > >
> >> > >--Joe
> >> > >
> >> > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Joe,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This is BS.
> >> > >> [snip]
> >> > >> Zen is not to be found in a teacher or monastery. It's everywhere
> >> > >> right in front of your nose..
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
