Merle, Lots to cover...I've embedded my responses in the body of your text...
--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > > bill!.. > so what is it exactly what you are attempting to tell me Bill!... Just THIS! > by the way having to add an exclamation mark is very painful.. > means i have to do shift.....that's not my style.. > so it will have to be billllllllll...... >  hey looks like a bar code on the grocery item eh? A little... >  billllllllllllllllllll..................... >  so you have told me over and over again we must all have instructions.. > well hallo billlllllllllllllll with the bar code name... > i am the teacher... > how many times have i hinted at this and you do not believe me!... I didn't count them. Many times. >  don't you have faith in me?.. No. > don't trust me? No. > sensual ..mmmm interesting.. > i was of the understanding through realisation and your most power packed > instructions > that we must under all costs detach ourselves from the senses... > as they are attachments and can hinder realisation?.. Absolutely not. Do not detach yourself from your senses. They are how you experience. They are the gateway to Buddha Nature. > so what are we left with mind!... Drop the mind and you are left with only senses - only experience - Just THIS! > do you hate your mind? No. >  somewhere along the track you feel mind is a hinderance and must not be > tolerated!.. ATTACHMENT to the mind is a hindrance to realizing Buddha Nature, not the mind itself. > look at this way if one looses one's mind through an illness can one still > experience zen? You don't EXPERIENCE zen, you PRACTICE zen. You EXPERIENCE Buddha Nature. And yes, anyone that is able to have sensual experience can/is realizing Buddha Nature. ...Bill! >  merle > > >  > Bill, > > There is no "transmission" of Zen from person to person. There is only > pointing. Realization does NOT come from any other person. It comes from > directly confronting reality and seeing it as it actually is... > > Edgar > > > > > On Oct 27, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > >  > >Merle, > > > >We stress 'instructions' here because this is a forum dedicated to Zen > >Buddhism. Zen Buddhism has a history of being perpetuated by a very > >intimate, one-to-one teacher/student relationship which results in a > >mind-to-mind transmission. The first example of that I have ever heard of > >is Siddhartha's mind-to-mind transmission (realization of Buddha Nature) to > >Mahakashapa at Vulture Peak. > > > >'Sensual' means 'having to do with the senses'. It's from the same root as > >is 'sentient' as in 'all sentient beings have Buddha Nature'. > >Our discriminating mind divides the senses into 5 categories: sight, > >hearing, smell, taste and feel. > > > >...Bill! > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >> > >> bill!..you are obsessed with instructions from some one else: why? because > >> that is the way you did this..so we all flow with you? > >> àwhy a teacher?.... are we not all teachers unto to ourselves?... > >> àplease explain sensual.... > >> merle > >> à> >> Edgar, Merle and Joe, > >> > >> Of course you can experience Buddha Nature 'on your own'. You could build > >> a Space Shuttle 'on your own', by trial and error, or you could take > >> advantage of the teachings and advice of those who have already built one. > >> Both Siddhartha and Jesus (according to the accounts we have)were > >> precocious children and yet even they struggled their whole life to > >> realize what we (or at least I) now call 'Buddha Nature'. > >> > >> Siddhartha is said to have first recognized life was suffering and wanted > >> to discover how to alleviate it. He first tried studying (rationality), > >> then scriptures (faith), then asceticism (body) and found no relief. He > >> finally swore to just sit under a tree until he discovered who to > >> alleviate suffering, and not to get up until he did - or died. > >> > >> As the story goes on the 40th morning he saw the light from the a star as > >> it rose above the horizon just before daybreak. It was then he realized > >> what I now call 'Buddha Nature'. > >> > >> Seeing the light was a sensual experience - not an understanding or an act > >> of faith. > >> > >> Anyone can do this by themselves as Siddhartha did or Jesus - but it is > >> much more likely you will be able to do this with the guidance of a > >> teacher. > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Ãâàjoe..what edgar says makes sense...who was buddha's teacher? > >> > who was christ's teacher?..merle > >> > > >> > > >> > Ãâà> >> > Joe, > >> > > >> > You claim that "you cannot do the work to awaken on your own". > >> > > >> > O really, then who pray tell was Buddha's teacher since he had no human > >> > teacher? > >> > > >> > Give up? > >> > > >> > Answer. It was reality as I've been trying to explain to you. > >> > > >> > I prove my point... > >> > > >> > Edgar > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Joe wrote: > >> > > >> > Ãâà> >> > >Edgar, > >> > > > >> > >No, Edgar, it is not BS. > >> > > > >> > >(If you need someone to attack, try Paintball). > >> > > > >> > >A lot of self-enlightened fools traipse the streets of the world. They > >> > >are not awake. Are you one? No, I think you worked with a teacher, > >> > >once. > >> > > > >> > >The methods of Zen are Medicine, and the Teacher is Medicine, too. So > >> > >is a Sangha. > >> > > > >> > >You cannot do the work to awaken on your own. The fact that you think > >> > >it is on "your" own is what keeps you in the small bottle, and prevents > >> > >You from flowing out to expand to the walls of the infinite aquarium. > >> > > > >> > >Take the medicine; awaken; be well; and *then* your last line is > >> > >finally true. Not before. > >> > > > >> > >Of course not everybody wants to or can do that, even if it means never > >> > >awakening. But when these fools represent themselves as masters and > >> > >demean or deprecate Practice, they are not to be suffered gladly, nor > >> > >suffered at all. > >> > > > >> > >Yes, it's everywhere. So are the unoxidizable tools of awakening, > >> > >waiting in the shed, available to you and to everyone if you want to > >> > >see a change. > >> > > > >> > >Go for it! > >> > > > >> > >Or maybe you've done this at some time, and still remember it. > >> > > > >> > >--Joe > >> > > > >> > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> Joe, > >> > >> > >> > >> This is BS. > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> Zen is not to be found in a teacher or monastery. It's everywhere > >> > >> right in front of your nose.. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! 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