Merle, When I go to the shopping mall I shop. What do you do?
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > edgar. > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except i > cannot explain it like you have.. > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see it we > zen through the day.. > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats,  eyes > shut tight, sniffing incense and  listening to gongs." > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the > breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands and > shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > >  it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking as if > in a shadowland( plato's cave)..... > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll very > soon understand > > merle > >  > Edgar, > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same about > your theories. > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the > Zen texts were written." > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the Patriarchs > weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this discovery > definitive or could there be further "updates" which would render the Zen you > practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen or something > different entirely? > > > Mike > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > >  > Joe, > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' actually > means... > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, actions > etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so long as you > are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as active during > sleep as when awake. > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it precisely > because your mind is moving. > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves in > sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not moving' > platitude was written centuries ago when the computational dynamics of mind > were not understood. It refers to a state when you don't consciously think > you are deciding to take particular actions but actions seem to flow > spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. However it is now known that > is always happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes any > decisions at all even though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. The > source of almost all decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner > computational system. > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen > texts were written. > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is realization > that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually happening, not getting > rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible if you want to function in > reality and survive through the day... > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it to > him... > > Edgar > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > >  > >Edgar, > > > >Ha, ha. > > > >Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > > >Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a logical > >exposition: > > > >The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice paper do > >so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO mind (and > >hence, no mind-motion). > > > >I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of > >meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY > >SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, first in > >direction, then in the other". > > > >That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain > >developments on retreat... > > > >...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and the > >body could nonetheless move. > > > >But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a > >continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, and > >richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I have ever > >done. > > > >And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > > >I had to type. > > > >I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced radio-telescope > >from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, 120th Street and > >Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments of cold molecular > >gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring > >from high above the galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the > >galactic disk, where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the > >formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. > >The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex. > > > >Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings showed > >the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened state, in the > >midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a > >continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we all share, which is no > >mind. > > > >I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or > >sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an illusion > >that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only. These > >things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does not > >deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened state, however; > >not present at all. > > > >Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something moving, > >and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. This appears > >to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or necked-down, in > >the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, which is just what we > >might also expect. > > > >NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > > >Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > > >See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > > >Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor formulated. > > > >Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not something > >that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond naturally. > > > >And so it is. > > > >--Joe > > > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >> > >> Joe, > >> > >> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind has to > >> move to write... > >> > >> THAT's the experience... > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
