QUOTE FOR THE DAY... "Is that a REAL pancho? I mean is that a MEXICAN pancho, or a SEARS pancho?" - Frank Zappa, CAMARILLO BRILLO
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > Thanks for at least answering our questions. Now, that wasn't so hard, was it? > > As for calling me a "free rider", it wasn't just me. No one paid anything. I > guess that's a difference between real Japanese Zen and American commercial > zen. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 21, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Joe wrote: > > > Bill!, Edgar, and All, > > > > Yeah, I don't fathom Edgar's money-fixation in this venue, but I'll note > > that retreats and sesshin do cost money at the two different centers where > > I was most associated. At one of them, I was on the Board for many years, > > and served too as President for some time. We were responsible for setting > > rates for sesshin and zazenkai. We extended a "scholarship" to all who > > could not pay any or all of the retreat cost. The costs were extremely low, > > and covered food costs and the stipend that we paid to our Roshi. This was > > an entirely democratic sangha, in which the sangha ran things, not the > > teacher. A good model, perhaps, for non-monastic Zen centers in the West. > > This was the zen center in Tucson, an affiliate of Robert Aitken Roshi's > > "Diamond Sangha". We'll roll with the times and see how it shakes down over > > time as the centuries progress. I resigned from there after 25 years to > > form a Ch'an group, but still have an ear out for their occasional news. > > > > At Sheng Yen's place(s), he and his Monks and Nuns ran operations and set > > fees, as is proper in a monastic place. There were extremely cheap costs > > for 7-day and 3-day Ch'an Retreat, and even when I was an underpaid > > scientist who American Express refused to issue a card to, 7-day Ch'an > > retreats cost very little and I easily paid, gladly. Getting time off from > > work was more difficult, but I sat many retreats with Sheng Yen during 35 > > years. Anyone who could not pay was always welcome anyway. I always managed > > to pay, but I knew some who could not. Many people practiced Dana in > > addition, to support the daily operations of the Ch'an Center. Rent in NYC > > was expensive, and then so was the mortgage when we bought the building, > > until it was all paid down. At least there was no real estate tax to pay, > > because the outfit is a IRS 501-C-3 Religious Educational Organization. > > Yes, Zen (Ch'an) is a Religion. > > > > I find, in general, that if we want to establish safe and encouraging > > practice places in America (or, fill in your address...) where people can > > awaken, we must build them, and must pay for them in order to build them, > > and maintain them. That's what we're doing, and that's what we've done. The > > results have been monotonically encouraging. I hope that's been everybody's > > experience who has done this work. Free-riders like Edgar are welcome if > > they are serious about practice. I've only seen one person sent home, but > > she was a newcomer and a severe mental-case, off her meds. We handled it > > very smoothly, and, as Roshi's Jisha it was mostly my responsibility to get > > her home safely and with the least disruption to the sesshin. Mission > > accomplished. But of course much more "remarkable" things happen on > > sesshin, daily, and I will not speak of them. ;-) > > > > --Joe > > > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > Edgar and Joe, > > > > > > I don't know how it is now, but back in the 'good old days' (which in my > > > case is the 1960's) zen centers operated on a pretty sparse budget. [snip] > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
