Chris, I thought you used it as an example of the very root of ILLUSION? It sounds that way...
Edgar On Nov 23, 2012, at 12:56 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > I used reluctance arising as an example of the very root of Zen. > > On Nov 23, 2012 8:36 AM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > I'm in general agreement with your post. I would think we'd all agree that > only the present moment is real and that Zen is always in the present moment. > > Then only slight disagreement I have is your mentioning some things you > consider non Zen. Reluctance like any other action is Zen if done in Zen > spirit. It is true Zen makes tends to make one more spontaneous but not > always... There are often good reasons NOT to be too spontaneous. It can get > you into trouble... > > Zen is everything that is. It's just a matter of realizing that rather than > judging things as Zen or not Zen.... > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:35 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > >> >> >> In the school of Zen in which I am being trained, the whole point is only >> exactly what is in the current moment. When that is a sense of profound lack >> of separation with all, then that is the whole of Zen. When that is a >> certain reluctance to begin the pumpkin pie cooking, then that is the very >> root of Zen. When it is breathing deeply on a zafu while the volume of >> thoughts gradually lowers itself, then that is the full and total essence of >> Zen. Bearing in mind that all these words are mere cartoons of the fulness >> of moments. >> >> What i am arguing against is the idea that "realization" will give a >> "person" a "permanent break" from delusions. There is a reason the old >> master yelled every day: "Do not deceive yourself!" >> >> You have not in the scope of my reading here shared your realization >> experience. Bill! Has and I am quite grateful for this sharing of an >> important experience. >> >> Experiences may make easier or harder the living fully in the current >> moment, but solving Mu in Bill!'s own story while wonderful in the moment >> set the stage for a lifetime of living fully in the moment in the variety of >> nows that life brings him. Note that zazen is still something he finds >> useful. >> >> I haven't posted anything about a realization experience on my part as my >> school really hasn't placed emphasis on this for me. I have no doubt that my >> ability to attend to the current reality is pretty strong at sesshin and >> pretty easy to disrupt for angry people that know me very well. I gain >> confidence in my ability to let the strong disruptive responses my body/mInd >> throws up in my path run their course quickly and without damage, without >> actually thinking that "I" don't "deserve" this current moment. >> >> My body cranks up, the energy dissipates, and life goes on as it does. >> >> I have had all kind of mystical experiences my whole life, but that doesn't >> do much to extend my ability to stay present. Zazen, the enlightened action >> itself, does seem to strengthen my body/mind in such a fashion. >> >> >> And really, things are ok as they are - there is no profit to be gained in >> worrying about enlightenment. Just cook, sit, write, walk, as appropriate. >> >> I hope you trouble yourself to find understanding of my writings. On >> rereading my initial post, I still find it a reasonably clear exposition of >> my point. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:19, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> In denying enlightenment (what I prefer to call realization) is even >>> possible you deny the whole essence of Zen and contradict what everyone on >>> this list is here for... >>> >>> And you deny the realization experiences of the others on this list as well. >>> >>> Is that your intention? >>> >>> Or do I misunderstand you? >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 22, 2012, at 12:13 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2012 8:04 AM, "Chris Austin-Lane" wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Bearing in mind that all things fall apart, so that some quality >>>> > "enlightened" cannot possibly be statically true of some Composite >>>> > object like a person (I.e. your statement is void of meaning), it is >>>> > certainly true that one can eyeball to eyeball have Buddha seeing Buddha >>>> > as it ever was. >>>> > >>>> > I would hold this very listserv up as an example of how words alone do >>>> > not capture enough of our personhood to enable that recognition. Even >>>> > in person, it is a matter of the now, not of ongoing duration or >>>> > certification. Witness how our most (non-lurking) experienced >>>> > practitioners are unable to resist judging each other as zen or not. >>>> > >>>> > Speaking of the transience of our very "selves" I read a really >>>> > interesting book, Brain On Fire, about a woman who went totally insane >>>> > for about two months because her body started producing antibodies to a >>>> > crucial glutamate receptor on her brain cells. She was days away from >>>> > being treated as a recalcitrant schizophrenic when the found a doctor >>>> > who could diagnose and treat the antibody disorder and return her to >>>> > ordinary mind. >>>> > >>>> > If you think you "enlightenment" gives you some permanent break from >>>> > delusions, good luck with that thought. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Chris Austin-Lane >>>> > +1-301-270-6524 >>>> > >>>> > On Nov 22, 2012, at 4:53, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Merle and Joe, >>>> >> >>>> >> The answer is easy. >>>> >> >>>> >> To the extent YOU are enlightened you know when anyone else is >>>> >> enlightened. >>>> >> >>>> >> But lots of unenlightened and gullible people are fooled by false gurus >>>> >> who claim to be enlightened. >>>> >> >>>> >> And lots of people who aren't enlightened don't recognize the >>>> >> enlightenment of those who are enlightened even if they are right in >>>> >> front of their faces.... >>>> >> >>>> >> Edgar >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Nov 22, 2012, at 1:38 AM, Merle Lester wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> yes joe..how do we know when the master /guru /teacher is >>>> >>> enlightened?..merle >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Merle, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yes, good point! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Did it get lost?: The question you were anxious to have answered. It >>>> >>> ran like: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> "How can we tell if the master is really enlightened, or not?", >>>> >>> >>>> >>> or something close to that. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So please have a go at an answer, Sensei. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> --Joe >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Â what question?..merle >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > > > >
