Mike, What I mean is that everything is Buddha Nature and realizing Buddha Nature is the essence of Zen. The mountain IS Buddha Nature whether you are on it or not, whether you realize it or not....
As for beating a puppy that is part of Buddha Nature but it is NOT the compassionate action of a realized being. Edgar On Nov 24, 2012, at 6:10 AM, mike brown wrote: > > Edgar, > > >Zen is everything that is. > > If everything is Zen, doesn't the word lose its currency? I see the > statement, "There's only as much Zen on a mountain as you bring" more > accurate and helpful. I wouldn't describe a sadist beating a puppy as Zen. > > Mike > > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 23 November 2012, 16:35 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: the zen spirit > > > Chris, > > I'm in general agreement with your post. I would think we'd all agree that > only the present moment is real and that Zen is always in the present moment. > > Then only slight disagreement I have is your mentioning some things you > consider non Zen. Reluctance like any other action is Zen if done in Zen > spirit. It is true Zen makes tends to make one more spontaneous but not > always... There are often good reasons NOT to be too spontaneous. It can get > you into trouble... > > Zen is everything that is. It's just a matter of realizing that rather than > judging things as Zen or not Zen.... > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 23, 2012, at 10:35 AM, ChrisAustinLane wrote: > >> >> >> In the school of Zen in which I am being trained, the whole point is only >> exactly what is in the current moment. When that is a sense of profound lack >> of separation with all, then that is the whole of Zen. When that is a >> certain reluctance to begin the pumpkin pie cooking, then that is the very >> root of Zen. When it is breathing deeply on a zafu while the volume of >> thoughts gradually lowers itself, then that is the full and total essence of >> Zen. Bearing in mind that all these words are mere cartoons of the fulness >> of moments. >> >> What i am arguing against is the idea that "realization" will give a >> "person" a "permanent break" from delusions. There is a reason the old >> master yelled every day: "Do not deceive yourself!" >> >> You have not in the scope of my reading here shared your realization >> experience. Bill! Has and I am quite grateful for this sharing of an >> important experience. >> >> Experiences may make easier or harder the living fully in the current >> moment, but solving Mu in Bill!'s own story while wonderful in the moment >> set the stage for a lifetime of living fully in the moment in the variety of >> nows that life brings him. Note that zazen is still something he finds >> useful. >> >> I haven't posted anything about a realization experience on my part as my >> school really hasn't placed emphasis on this for me. I have no doubt that my >> ability to attend to the current reality is pretty strong at sesshin and >> pretty easy to disrupt for angry people that know me very well. I gain >> confidence in my ability to let the strong disruptive responses my body/mInd >> throws up in my path run their course quickly and without damage, without >> actually thinking that "I" don't "deserve" this current moment. >> >> My body cranks up, the energy dissipates, and life goes on as it does. >> >> I have had all kind of mystical experiences my whole life, but that doesn't >> do much to extend my ability to stay present. Zazen, the enlightened action >> itself, does seem to strengthen my body/mind in such a fashion. >> >> >> And really, things are ok as they are - there is no profit to be gained in >> worrying about enlightenment. Just cook, sit, write, walk, as appropriate. >> >> I hope you trouble yourself to find understanding of my writings. On >> rereading my initial post, I still find it a reasonably clear exposition of >> my point. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Nov 22, 2012, at 10:19, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> In denying enlightenment (what I prefer to call realization) is even >>> possible you deny the whole essence of Zen and contradict what everyone on >>> this list is here for... >>> >>> And you deny the realization experiences of the others on this list as well. >>> >>> Is that your intention? >>> >>> Or do I misunderstand you? >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Nov 22, 2012, at 12:13 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 22, 2012 8:04 AM, "Chris Austin-Lane" wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Bearing in mind that all things fall apart, so that some quality >>>> > "enlightened" cannot possibly be statically true of some Composite >>>> > object like a person (I.e. your statement is void of meaning), it is >>>> > certainly true that one can eyeball to eyeball have Buddha seeing Buddha >>>> > as it ever was. >>>> > >>>> > I would hold this very listserv up as an example of how words alone do >>>> > not capture enough of our personhood to enable that recognition. Even >>>> > in person, it is a matter of the now, not of ongoing duration or >>>> > certification. Witness how our most (non-lurking) experienced >>>> > practitioners are unable to resist judging each other as zen or not. >>>> > >>>> > Speaking of the transience of our very "selves" I read a really >>>> > interesting book, Brain On Fire, about a woman who went totally insane >>>> > for about two months because her body started producing antibodies to a >>>> > crucial glutamate receptor on her brain cells. She was days away from >>>> > being treated as a recalcitrant schizophrenic when the found a doctor >>>> > who could diagnose and treat the antibody disorder and return her to >>>> > ordinary mind. >>>> > >>>> > If you think you "enlightenment" gives you some permanent break from >>>> > delusions, good luck with that thought. >>>> > >>>> > Thanks, >>>> > Chris Austin-Lane >>>> > +1-301-270-6524 >>>> > >>>> > On Nov 22, 2012, at 4:53, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Merle and Joe, >>>> >> >>>> >> The answer is easy. >>>> >> >>>> >> To the extent YOU are enlightened you know when anyone else is >>>> >> enlightened. >>>> >> >>>> >> But lots of unenlightened and gullible people are fooled by false gurus >>>> >> who claim to be enlightened. >>>> >> >>>> >> And lots of people who aren't enlightened don't recognize the >>>> >> enlightenment of those who are enlightened even if they are right in >>>> >> front of their faces.... >>>> >> >>>> >> Edgar >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Nov 22, 2012, at 1:38 AM, Merle Lester wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> yes joe..how do we know when the master /guru /teacher is >>>> >>> enlightened?..merle >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Merle, >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Yes, good point! >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Did it get lost?: The question you were anxious to have answered. It >>>> >>> ran like: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> "How can we tell if the master is really enlightened, or not?", >>>> >>> >>>> >>> or something close to that. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> So please have a go at an answer, Sensei. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> --Joe >>>> >>> >>>> >>> > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >>>> >>> > >>>> >>> > Â what question?..merle >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>> >> > > > > >
