Joe, You are certainly correct that the words/concepts of belief, faith and trust are generally co-mingled. I certainly sometimes use them interchangeably when really I shouldn't. The are related but are different words because they describe different things; or at least different nuances of very similar things.
I have read parts of some of the writings you cited but these have to do with Buddhism which is a religion and therefore based on faith, or philosophy which is based on logic. Zen is not a religion and is based neither on faith or logic but on experience. Again, all this is IMO... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > I bring in the other word, "trust" because I think that, as many of us use > the words "belief" and "faith", we are leaning toward and meaning something > more like trust, and reliance. > > I think that belief and faith -- as used in their more strict dictionary > sense(s) -- when used, say, by a young (or proselytizing) religionist, are > most often the naive emotions of a juvenile practitioner, or are presented > for a young newcomer to latch on to and use as tools. > > After one has some experience, particularly, a "turnabout" experience or > episode, but not limited to that, one may still respond to and rely upon the > mysterious elements of life as a *source* of life, and of light. When one > regards them, one feels wonder, respect, awe, participation, and > responsibility. As one further regards them, one feels, I'd say, faith and > trust. Again, this is not "blind" faith! It is based on experience and the > most intimate sort of "knowledge", more akin to "being", one's being, once it > becomes clarified or simplified to its essential. > > Translations sometime fail us when we read records of awakened teachers and > philosophers, and their teachings. For example, I think immediately of two > works in Buddhism, one by a Ch'an master, and one by and great Indian > Buddhist practitioner and Philsopher. > > You are probably already very well familiar with the Ch'an work: the Hsin > Hsin Ming (FAITH IN MIND). > > And, attributed to Asvaghosha, THE AWAKENING OF FAITH IN THE MAHAYANA, which > was originally written in Sanskrit, then translated to Chinese in 550 AD, and > following this the Sanskrit version was lost. He treats four faiths and five > practices. There is faith in: The Ultimate Source of things; in the Buddhas; > in the Dharma; and in the Sangha. Another way to say this is faith in Buddha > Nature, and in the Three Jewels, or Three Treasures, or Gems. > > Well, one might question whether these faiths persist, mutate, evolve, or > disappear after awakening (or, at least, after one's first awakening). I > suppose it varies with causes and conditions! > > --Joe > > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > Of course both belief and faith have a component of trust. My distinction > > is just that faith is a type of belief that has no experiential, scientific > > or logical foundation. Trust can be well- or ill-founded. > > > > Hume's 'will the sun rise again tomorrow' is a good example. Whether you > > consider the answer to that (belief) something based on faith or not could > > be debated. I say it is. > > > > In any event the question of whether or not the sun will rise again > > tomorrow has nothing to do with zen practice. > > > > ...Bill! > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
