Fleetinginsight,
In practice circles, I think there's no "theory" as to who it is who takes the
vows, etc. One simply takes them, even without a clear idea about the "one".
I think we can be as clear about it in this instance -- of taking vows, and
precepts -- as about anything else, and so, therefore, from the point of view
of pragmatism and utilitarianism, all's well with the doing of it: in our sect,
awakening is the goal, not understanding or philosophizing (but, that much is
already known by any student of Zen who has practiced).
If you can muster the gumption to formulate a vow, that's good enough. And
it's *very* good.
The taking of vows and precepts is the employment of tools, and, really, of
skilful means... skilful means for our own awakening.
This is a bit different from the usual usage, appreciation of, and application
of skilful means, isn't it? Usually, skilful means refer(s) to means and ways,
tactics, and technic which we develop, ourselves, after awakening, in order to
help others and hence to fulfill our Bodhisattva vows of saving beings;
mastering approaches to Dharma; and, attaining the Buddhaway.
Do you have a short nickname that we can refer to you by, by the way? For
example, instead of my long email user-name, I use the nickname "Joe", here,
and sign posts that way. By now, it feels natural. Of course, posts do not
need to be signed. ;-)
--Joe
> "fleetinginsight" wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
> Thank you for the welcome, and the very nice response. What you've said
> certainly gets me thinking. So, here's one possibility:
>
> "Who is the I that takes the vows?"
>
> My first thought is that the "I" who takes the vows is every bit as ephemeral
> as the "I" who thinks this one thought, or to be a little vulgar, the I who
> went to the bathroom this morning. "I" is not a lasting entity, but more of
> an unfolding stream of experience, and it seems to me that no two moments in
> that stream are identical.
>
> Incidentally, it's interesting to know that monastics repeat these vows so
> often -- perhaps because of the realization that the "I" who recited the vows
> this morning is not the same fundamental entity as the "I" who is reciting
> them now.
>
> Now, if that's how things are, it opens up a whole other question about where
> continuity comes from. Clearly my experience of "I" now bears some
> resemblance to who and what "I" was 1,000 moments ago. And the vows I made
> yesterday or a year ago have consequences for what I do now. But, I still
> don't see that as being relevant to free will. Here is an analogy that I'd
> like to try out:
>
> The trees I will pass by on my way home from work today are not the same
> trees that I passed by on the way to work this morning, despite being in
> roughly the same location and looking mostly the same. They've grown a
> little, their cellular structure has changed, etc., and all of those changes
> are conditioned and dependently arisen. Those changes have be brought about
> by the sun, the moisture in the soil, etc., but also (and this is where the
> vow thing comes in) by the state the tree was in at the time the sun hit it,
> the water saturated the ground, etc. So, the tree's current state is
> conditioned upon its past states. The tree *entity* has no enduring essence
> -- the trees I greet this evening are *not* the same trees I saw this
> morning-- but the unfolding process of this particular tree is continuous,
> and past states of the tree (what and how the tree was before) impose
> limitations on current states of the tree.
>
> Of course, in this case the tree is the mind, or the "I" who recites the vows
> or chooses a particular action. Viewed as an entity, that "I" dies with each
> new moment; viewed as a process, though, that "I" serves as a condition for
> future states of being. So, you have continuity, but no enduring essence; no
> essential self who takes the vows or chooses his next action.
>
> That's one possibility, I guess. Looking forward to hearing back from you
> (and others)!
------------------------------------
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