Is this state of flux permanent?
--- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
> Â
> welcome.... all is in flux... forever changing, forever evolving....
> who is the I of I is but a possibility..
> for ever becoming, forever growing, forever expanding...Â
> sit in the zen moment  and breathe...
> Â awareness of change is the beginning ..
> now what is your next  fleeting insight?
> merle
>
>
> Â
> Hi Joe,
>
> Thank you for the welcome, and the very nice response. What you've said
> certainly gets me thinking. So, here's one possibility:
>
> "Who is the I that takes the vows?"
>
> My first thought is that the "I" who takes the vows is every bit as ephemeral
> as the "I" who thinks this one thought, or to be a little vulgar, the I who
> went to the bathroom this morning. "I" is not a lasting entity, but more of
> an unfolding stream of experience, and it seems to me that no two moments in
> that stream are identical.
>
> Incidentally, it's interesting to know that monastics repeat these vows so
> often -- perhaps because of the realization that the "I" who recited the vows
> this morning is not the same fundamental entity as the "I" who is reciting
> them now.
>
> Now, if that's how things are, it opens up a whole other question about where
> continuity comes from. Clearly my experience of "I" now bears some
> resemblance to who and what "I" was 1,000 moments ago. And the vows I made
> yesterday or a year ago have consequences for what I do now. But, I still
> don't see that as being relevant to free will. Here is an analogy that I'd
> like to try out:
>
> The trees I will pass by on my way home from work today are not the same
> trees that I passed by on the way to work this morning, despite being in
> roughly the same location and looking mostly the same. They've grown a
> little, their cellular structure has changed, etc., and all of those changes
> are conditioned and dependently arisen. Those changes have be brought about
> by the sun, the moisture in the soil, etc., but also (and this is where the
> vow thing comes in) by the state the tree was in at the time the sun hit it,
> the water saturated the ground, etc. So, the tree's current state is
> conditioned upon its past states. The tree *entity* has no enduring essence
> -- the trees I greet this evening are *not* the same trees I saw this
> morning-- but the unfolding process of this particular tree is continuous,
> and past states of the tree (what and how the tree was before) impose
> limitations on current states of the tree.
>
> Of course, in this case the tree is the mind, or the "I" who recites the vows
> or chooses a particular action. Viewed as an entity, that "I" dies with each
> new moment; viewed as a process, though, that "I" serves as a condition for
> future states of being. So, you have continuity, but no enduring essence; no
> essential self who takes the vows or chooses his next action.
>
> That's one possibility, I guess. Looking forward to hearing back from you
> (and others)!
>
> --- In [email protected], "Joe" wrote:
> >
> > Greetings, Fleetinginsight,
> >
> > A well-considered post! Welcome.
> >
> > Regarding the matter of free will in a Buddhist context, remember that,
> > among monastics and lay people, there are... "Vows". The monastics of
> > course take many more of the Precepts than lay people do; and, at least
> > three times per day, monastics in their daily practice -- and lay people,
> > say, on sesshin or zazenkai -- chant the four Bodhisattva Vows.
> >
> > Now, what do you make of the matter of free will, and the practice of
> > taking, making, and practicing according to, and in accord with... Vows?
> >
> > We can ask the same things you ask about free will: WHO takes the vows (who
> > makes them; who adheres to them... )? And, we can note that we can "keep"
> > a vow, but we might also "break" it. Granted, the Zen sect, like others,
> > takes hetu pratyaya -- conditioned arising -- as gospel: as reality.
> > Yet... Vows are considered -- known -- to have power.
> >
> > I simply put this out there for all to consider. I'll work on it, too,
> > over the next hours or days.
> >
> > Just a brief reply, and a "Welcome!" to the Group.
> >
> > --Joe
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "fleetinginsight" wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Greetings, all, from a new member.
> > >
> > > This is an interesting question; I thought I'd try exploring it from a
> > > slightly different direction.
> > >
> > > In a strictly philosophical sense, "free will" doesn't make any sense
> > > from a Buddhist (or Zen) framework, does it?
> > >
> > > First, free will is the notion that I have ultimate dominion over my
> > > choices and actions. But, of course, Buddhism teaches that there is no
> > > inherent or lasting "I" that could act as the controller. So, who is it
> > > that controls these choices? The self that appears to be in control is
> > > itself fleeting and arisen from causes and conditions, so it can't be
> > > that, can it?
> > >
> > > Second, free will usually comes with the requirement that in any
> > > particular situation (i.e., holding constant the forces at play), I
> > > *could have* done otherwise. This seems quite incoherent with the notion
> > > that all phenomena (including the momentary experience of the self) arise
> > > sufficiently on the basis of causes and conditions. The decision or
> > > choice could be different -- but first you'd have to find a way to change
> > > the causes and conditions that give rise to the self who decides. In
> > > this sense, most decisions, in the moment they are made couldn't have
> > > been different than how they were.
> > >
> > > So, in some sense our decisions are fully the product of our karma (I'm
> > > using "karma" here to simply mean conditioned patterns of perceiving,
> > > judging, and acting upon the world). But karma is not fixed (there's
> > > that darn impermanence thing again). Karma, too, is subject to causes
> > > and conditions. One such condition, mindfulness, seems to "open up" our
> > > habitual ways of acting to alternative possibilities. Mindfulness means
> > > awareness of the arising and ceasing of particular perceptions or
> > > thoughts. It seems that this awareness takes away some of the usual
> > > "power" of habits and allows for alternative courses of action. This
> > > isn't really "free will" in any meaningful sense, but it is greater
> > > flexibility in our ways of relating to the world, which itself sews the
> > > seeds for future behavior.
> > >
> > > Anyway, these are the musings of my karmic mind. ;) I'd love to hear
> > > what others have to say.
> >
>
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