Thanks, Chris Austin-Lane Sent from a cell phone
On Jan 11, 2013, at 18:07, "Bill!" <[email protected]> wrote: > Um... ? > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane wrote: >> >> Does a dog have free will? >> >> /lifts leg >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Jan 9, 2013, at 17:17, "Joe" wrote: >> >>> Greetings, Fleetinginsight, >>> >>> A well-considered post! Welcome. >>> >>> Regarding the matter of free will in a Buddhist context, remember that, >>> among monastics and lay people, there are... "Vows". The monastics of >>> course take many more of the Precepts than lay people do; and, at least >>> three times per day, monastics in their daily practice -- and lay people, >>> say, on sesshin or zazenkai -- chant the four Bodhisattva Vows. >>> >>> Now, what do you make of the matter of free will, and the practice of >>> taking, making, and practicing according to, and in accord with... Vows? >>> >>> We can ask the same things you ask about free will: WHO takes the vows (who >>> makes them; who adheres to them... )? And, we can note that we can "keep" >>> a vow, but we might also "break" it. Granted, the Zen sect, like others, >>> takes hetu pratyaya -- conditioned arising -- as gospel: as reality. >>> Yet... Vows are considered -- known -- to have power. >>> >>> I simply put this out there for all to consider. I'll work on it, too, >>> over the next hours or days. >>> >>> Just a brief reply, and a "Welcome!" to the Group. >>> >>> --Joe >>> >>> --- In [email protected], "fleetinginsight" wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings, all, from a new member. >>>> >>>> This is an interesting question; I thought I'd try exploring it from a >>>> slightly different direction. >>>> >>>> In a strictly philosophical sense, "free will" doesn't make any sense from >>>> a Buddhist (or Zen) framework, does it? >>>> >>>> First, free will is the notion that I have ultimate dominion over my >>>> choices and actions. But, of course, Buddhism teaches that there is no >>>> inherent or lasting "I" that could act as the controller. So, who is it >>>> that controls these choices? The self that appears to be in control is >>>> itself fleeting and arisen from causes and conditions, so it can't be >>>> that, can it? >>>> >>>> Second, free will usually comes with the requirement that in any >>>> particular situation (i.e., holding constant the forces at play), I *could >>>> have* done otherwise. This seems quite incoherent with the notion that all >>>> phenomena (including the momentary experience of the self) arise >>>> sufficiently on the basis of causes and conditions. The decision or >>>> choice could be different -- but first you'd have to find a way to change >>>> the causes and conditions that give rise to the self who decides. In this >>>> sense, most decisions, in the moment they are made couldn't have been >>>> different than how they were. >>>> >>>> So, in some sense our decisions are fully the product of our karma (I'm >>>> using "karma" here to simply mean conditioned patterns of perceiving, >>>> judging, and acting upon the world). But karma is not fixed (there's that >>>> darn impermanence thing again). Karma, too, is subject to causes and >>>> conditions. One such condition, mindfulness, seems to "open up" our >>>> habitual ways of acting to alternative possibilities. Mindfulness means >>>> awareness of the arising and ceasing of particular perceptions or >>>> thoughts. It seems that this awareness takes away some of the usual >>>> "power" of habits and allows for alternative courses of action. This >>>> isn't really "free will" in any meaningful sense, but it is greater >>>> flexibility in our ways of relating to the world, which itself sews the >>>> seeds for future behavior. >>>> >>>> Anyway, these are the musings of my karmic mind. ;) I'd love to hear what >>>> others have to say. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
