Chris, Maybe that was just a little too subtle...
'Um' spelled backwards is....? ...Bill! --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane wrote: > > > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Jan 11, 2013, at 18:07, "Bill!" wrote: > > > Um... > > ? > > > > > --- In [email protected], ChrisAustinLane wrote: > >> > >> Does a dog have free will? > >> > >> /lifts leg > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Chris Austin-Lane > >> Sent from a cell phone > >> > >> On Jan 9, 2013, at 17:17, "Joe" wrote: > >> > >>> Greetings, Fleetinginsight, > >>> > >>> A well-considered post! Welcome. > >>> > >>> Regarding the matter of free will in a Buddhist context, remember that, > >>> among monastics and lay people, there are... "Vows". The monastics of > >>> course take many more of the Precepts than lay people do; and, at least > >>> three times per day, monastics in their daily practice -- and lay people, > >>> say, on sesshin or zazenkai -- chant the four Bodhisattva Vows. > >>> > >>> Now, what do you make of the matter of free will, and the practice of > >>> taking, making, and practicing according to, and in accord with... Vows? > >>> > >>> We can ask the same things you ask about free will: WHO takes the vows > >>> (who makes them; who adheres to them... )? And, we can note that we can > >>> "keep" a vow, but we might also "break" it. Granted, the Zen sect, like > >>> others, takes hetu pratyaya -- conditioned arising -- as gospel: as > >>> reality. Yet... Vows are considered -- known -- to have power. > >>> > >>> I simply put this out there for all to consider. I'll work on it, too, > >>> over the next hours or days. > >>> > >>> Just a brief reply, and a "Welcome!" to the Group. > >>> > >>> --Joe > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], "fleetinginsight" wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Greetings, all, from a new member. > >>>> > >>>> This is an interesting question; I thought I'd try exploring it from a > >>>> slightly different direction. > >>>> > >>>> In a strictly philosophical sense, "free will" doesn't make any sense > >>>> from a Buddhist (or Zen) framework, does it? > >>>> > >>>> First, free will is the notion that I have ultimate dominion over my > >>>> choices and actions. But, of course, Buddhism teaches that there is no > >>>> inherent or lasting "I" that could act as the controller. So, who is it > >>>> that controls these choices? The self that appears to be in control is > >>>> itself fleeting and arisen from causes and conditions, so it can't be > >>>> that, can it? > >>>> > >>>> Second, free will usually comes with the requirement that in any > >>>> particular situation (i.e., holding constant the forces at play), I > >>>> *could have* done otherwise. This seems quite incoherent with the notion > >>>> that all phenomena (including the momentary experience of the self) > >>>> arise sufficiently on the basis of causes and conditions. The decision > >>>> or choice could be different -- but first you'd have to find a way to > >>>> change the causes and conditions that give rise to the self who decides. > >>>> In this sense, most decisions, in the moment they are made couldn't > >>>> have been different than how they were. > >>>> > >>>> So, in some sense our decisions are fully the product of our karma (I'm > >>>> using "karma" here to simply mean conditioned patterns of perceiving, > >>>> judging, and acting upon the world). But karma is not fixed (there's > >>>> that darn impermanence thing again). Karma, too, is subject to causes > >>>> and conditions. One such condition, mindfulness, seems to "open up" our > >>>> habitual ways of acting to alternative possibilities. Mindfulness means > >>>> awareness of the arising and ceasing of particular perceptions or > >>>> thoughts. It seems that this awareness takes away some of the usual > >>>> "power" of habits and allows for alternative courses of action. This > >>>> isn't really "free will" in any meaningful sense, but it is greater > >>>> flexibility in our ways of relating to the world, which itself sews the > >>>> seeds for future behavior. > >>>> > >>>> Anyway, these are the musings of my karmic mind. ;) I'd love to hear > >>>> what others have to say. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > >>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are > > reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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