Merle and Mike, A good example of how careless untrained minds start rumors and legends...
Edgar On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:49 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > mike..good points...what a saint edgar must be 24/7 always awakened..merle > > > Bill!, > > I'm sure you'd agree that you're just as likely to awaken to Buddha Nature > while sitting on the toilet as you are while sitting on the cushion. But > that's not the point. A glimpse of Buddha Nature is just an initiation or > invitation to continue living the Dharma. Without deepening it it just > becomes one of many experiences (albeit a 'special' experience). > Enlightenment (for want of a better word) is a moment to moment experience > and without continuing practice to deepen it it's easy to backslide into > unskillful living again. > > I think Edgar and William believe that after an initial glimpse of Buddha > Nature that is it - that once experienced there's nothing more to do. For > Edgar to believe that he experiences Buddha Nature 24/7 just goes to show how > delusional the ego can be. > > Mike > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 6:58:29 AM > > > > William, > > I'm siding with Edgar too! > > It doesn't really matter how you hold your hands, BUT if you're CONCERNED > about how to hold your hands and it's keeping you from concentrating I'm > saying you can follow Joe's advice (which is pretty much the way I was > taught) and then you don't have to worry about it anymore. > > BUT, it really doesn't matter... > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote: >> >> Bill: >> >>    I have to side with Edgar here. What real difference does it make >> how >> you hold your hands?  I have seen numerous positions and the only useful >> explanation given was that a difficult hand position kept the individual >> from >> falling asleep. >> >> >>  >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Fri, April 5, 2013 8:02:53 PM >> Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation >> >>  >> Edgar, >> >> I again agree with your post below, but offer an alternate interpretation to >> the >> last phrase of your last line..., "...not getting mired in interminable >> details." >> >> Many of the teachings, dogmas and rituals of Zen Buddhism, Buddhism and >> religions in general are taught to do precisely that - keep the student from >> getting 'mired down details'. >> >> In this example if you are told how to hold your hands and then practice >> that >> you don't have to worry about your hands anymore. You are free to do >> whatever >> else it is that the religion wants you to do. It's the same in any activity >> like >> praying, bowing, and even sports. If you learn the basics by rote you can >> then >> practice them without having to think anymore about them anymore. >> >> Just a thought on this... >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Again all these details only distract from the real point. Buddha is >>> Buddha, no >>> matter what his posture, whether his hands are closed or open, his eyes >>> open, >>> closed or half closed. >>> >>> Zen is realizing your inner Buddha, not getting mired in interminable >>> details... >>> >>> You'll never realize Buddha if you are always checking your hands, your >>> posture >>> and whatever... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Joe wrote: >>> >>>> Merle, >>>> >>>> Your teacher may tell you differently. >>>> >>>> I learned to place the RIGHT hand in a loose "fist", and hold it at about >>>> the >>> navel. Then to cover the right fist with the LEFT hand. With the left thumb >>> on >>> top of the right fist. And just keep the shoulders and arms relaxed while >>> standing or walking this way. >>>> >>>> It's a natural and relaxed "closed" position, rather than letting the arms >>> dangle openly at the sides. >>>> >>>> This is also called "kinhin mudra", or Shashu. It's used when doing >>>> walking >>> meditation, "kinhin". It's also used when standing; and, when standing and >>> listening to the Dharma, as when the teacher is speaking and we are on our >>> feet. >>>> >>>> When walking about the zendo, or outside it, people often walk using >>>> Shashu >>> hand position, too, and never swing the arms at the sides. This is not a >>> rule, >>> it's a Practice. It helps us to keep in mind that we are there to PRACTICE, >>> ...not to walk around. >>> >>>> >>>> We have a lot of practical reminders of what we're doing there, what we're >>> there for. This is one of them. It sets an "atmosphere", too, about the >>> place, >>> an attitude of protecting our place of practice, so we can all practice >>> without >>> disruption, and come to awakening. >>>> >>>> It's a small thing, but small things are big when things quiet down, and >>>> we >>> become more sensitive. So, we do this. For ourselves and for each other. >>> It's >>> also a way of quieting things down. >>>> >>>> The Zen tradition has always emphasized practicing together. And it has >>>> such >>> ways of helping this work really well. >>>> >>>> Eyes are usually open in everything, except when sleeping. They "see", but >>> are not looking in focused fashion at anything in particular. Sight is >>> passive, >>> and we do not "stare" at anything, nor look around. When we sit or stand to >>> meditate, we do not move any part of the body, not even the eyes. Of >>> course, the >>> breath comes and goes naturally by itself without controlling. >>>> >>>> Well, again, this is as I learned it and as many of us do it. >>>> >>>> My teacher used to tell us, though, that, "Wherever you go, just fall >>>> right >>> in with how they practice, there." As a guest, do as the host does. >>>> >>>> Harmonizing is probably key to the whole business. Water flows easily, but >>>> a >>> brittle stick is stubborn, and makes a loud noise when it snaps (then, >>> opportunity is lost). >>>> >>>> Good practice! >>>> >>>> The Zen in a Chair teacher may give some good example and model these >>>> things. >>> I hope it goes well! >>>> >>>> --Joe >>>> >>>>> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> joe..thank you..can you describe how the hands are held in standing >>> meditation.?... i had the feeling i needed to open my eyes however in the >>> past >>> types of meditations there is the instruction to close the eyes...merle >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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