those that throw stones at glasshouses... throw stones at the "guilty" let them look back unto themselves first and trust they are squeaky clean... merle
Edgar, "Untrained minds", indeed. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone ________________________________ From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]>; To: <[email protected]>; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 11:58:23 AM Merle and Mike, A good example of how careless untrained minds start rumors and legends... Edgar On Apr 7, 2013, at 3:49 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > > mike..good points...what a saint edgar must be 24/7 always awakened..merle > > > Bill!, > > I'm sure you'd agree that you're just as likely to awaken to Buddha Nature > while sitting on the toilet as you are while sitting on the cushion. But > that's not the point. A glimpse of Buddha Nature is just an initiation or > invitation to continue living the Dharma. Without deepening it it just > becomes one of many experiences (albeit a 'special' experience). > Enlightenment (for want of a better word) is a moment to moment experience > and without continuing practice to deepen it it's easy to backslide into > unskillful living again. > > I think Edgar and William believe that after an initial glimpse of Buddha > Nature that is it - that once experienced there's nothing more to do. For > Edgar to believe that he experiences Buddha Nature 24/7 just goes to show how > delusional the ego can be. > > Mike > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <[email protected]>; > To: <[email protected]>; > Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 6:58:29 AM > > > > William, > > I'm siding with Edgar too! > > It doesn't really matter how you hold your hands, BUT if you're CONCERNED > about how to hold your hands and it's keeping you from concentrating I'm > saying you can follow Joe's advice (which is pretty much the way I was > taught) and then you don't have to worry about it anymore. > > BUT, it really doesn't matter... > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote: >> >> Bill: >> >>    I have to side with Edgar here. What real difference does it make >> how >> you hold your hands?  I have seen numerous positions and the only useful >> explanation given was that a difficult hand position kept the individual >> from >> falling asleep. >> >> >>  >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Fri, April 5, 2013 8:02:53 PM >> Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation >> >>  >> Edgar, >> >> I again agree with your post below, but offer an alternate interpretation to >> the >> last phrase of your last line..., "...not getting mired in interminable >> details." >> >> Many of the teachings, dogmas and rituals of Zen Buddhism, Buddhism and >> religions in general are taught to do precisely that - keep the student from >> getting 'mired down details'. >> >> In this example if you are told how to hold your hands and then practice >> that >> you don't have to worry about your hands anymore. You are free to do >> whatever >> else it is that the religion wants you to do. It's the same in any activity >> like >> praying, bowing, and even sports. If you learn the basics by rote you can >> then >> practice them without having to think anymore about them anymore. >> >> Just a thought on this... >> >> ...Bill! >> >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Again all these details only distract from the real point. Buddha is >>> Buddha, no >>> matter what his posture, whether his hands are closed or open, his eyes >>> open, >>> closed or half closed. >>> >>> Zen is realizing your inner Buddha, not getting mired in interminable >>> details... >>> >>> You'll never realize Buddha if you are always checking your hands, your >>> posture >>> and whatever... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Joe wrote: >>> >>>> Merle, >>>> >>>> Your teacher may tell you differently. >>>> >>>> I learned to place the RIGHT hand in a loose "fist", and hold it at about >>>> the >>> navel. Then to cover the right fist with the LEFT hand. With the left thumb >>> on >>> top of the right fist. And just keep the shoulders and arms relaxed while >>> standing or walking this way. >>>> >>>> It's a natural and relaxed "closed" position, rather than letting the arms >>> dangle openly at the sides. >>>> >>>> This is also called "kinhin mudra", or Shashu. It's used when doing >>>> walking >>> meditation, "kinhin". It's also used when standing; and, when standing and >>> listening to the Dharma, as when the teacher is speaking and we are on our >>> feet. >>>> >>>> When walking about the zendo, or outside it, people often walk using >>>> Shashu >>> hand position, too, and never swing the arms at the sides. This is not a >>> rule, >>> it's a Practice. It helps us to keep in mind that we are there to PRACTICE, >>> ...not to walk around. >>> >>>> >>>> We have a lot of practical reminders of what we're doing there, what we're >>> there for. This is one of them. It sets an "atmosphere", too, about the >>> place, >>> an attitude of protecting our place of practice, so we can all practice >>> without >>> disruption, and come to awakening. >>>> >>>> It's a small thing, but small things are big when things quiet down, and >>>> we >>> become more sensitive. So, we do this. For ourselves and for each other. >>> It's >>> also a way of quieting things down. >>>> >>>> The Zen tradition has always emphasized practicing together. And it has >>>> such >>> ways of helping this work really well. >>>> >>>> Eyes are usually open in everything, except when sleeping. They "see", but >>> are not looking in focused fashion at anything in particular. Sight is >>> passive, >>> and we do not "stare" at anything, nor look around. When we sit or stand to >>> meditate, we do not move any part of the body, not even the eyes. Of >>> course, the >>> breath comes and goes naturally by itself without controlling. >>>> >>>> Well, again, this is as I learned it and as many of us do it. >>>> >>>> My teacher used to tell us, though, that, "Wherever you go, just fall >>>> right >>> in with how they practice, there." As a guest, do as the host does. >>>> >>>> Harmonizing is probably key to the whole business. Water flows easily, but >>>> a >>> brittle stick is stubborn, and makes a loud noise when it snaps (then, >>> opportunity is lost). >>>> >>>> Good practice! >>>> >>>> The Zen in a Chair teacher may give some good example and model these >>>> things. >>> I hope it goes well! >>>> >>>> --Joe >>>> >>>>> Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> joe..thank you..can you describe how the hands are held in standing >>> meditation.?... i had the feeling i needed to open my eyes however in the >>> past >>> types of meditations there is the instruction to close the eyes...merle >>>> >>>> >>> >> > >
