Merle, Buddha saw suffering in the world and wanted to learn how to eliminate it. He tried a lot of ways to eliminate it in his own life. He is said to have found it while sitting under the Bodhi tree. By 'sitting' I believe that meant something very similar to zazen.
I think Jesus saw something very similar. He saw that the Jewish religion was not delivering what he thought it should be - and IMO that was peace and love. His message was basically 'love one another'. Anyway, as they say, the rest is HISTORY!!!! ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  bill!!! how stupid of me.... good mind reading...yes was buddha a zen > buddhist?... yes i get your drift..one forgets..of course jesus was not a > christian he was a jew and same with buddha...the question remains > then...what did both buddha and jesus find so lacking in hindu and jewish > religions that they need to evolve?... > are we  evolving too?... > can zen buddhism evolve now from what it is to something it has not been? > >  > Merle, > > IMO... > > No,Buddha (Gautama Shiddartha) was not a Zen Buddhist or a Buddhist. I > believe he was a Hindu. > > But that's like asking if Jesus was a Christian. No, he wasn't. He was a > Jew. Christianity came after Jesus. > > I think what you mean to ask is 'did Buddha practice zen'? And if that's > your question I'd say 'yes'. At least he meditated is what I would call is > very much what we know today as 'zazen', and he 'started zen' when he > 'transmitted the Dharma' to his student Mahakasyapa at his famous 'Flower > Sermon' at Vulture Peak. > > But did Buddha have any real Buddhist credentials? Nope... > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > à> > àgroup..was buddha a ZEN buddhist though.????? merle > > à> > Edgar, > > > > I've already said that here that Buddha never taught learnt or taught > > something called Buddhism. But he did rediscover the Dharma. He also had > > the best teachers in India teach him meditation techniques before his > > enlightenment. But the key point here is THAT HE WENT AROUND INDIA > > *TEACHING* THE DHARMA. > > > > Likewise, Hui-neng was awakened upon hearing a sutra. It was within the > > confines of a Zen temple that he then went on to write his "no dust" poem > > and that *because* of the teaching relationship of Zen this poem has come > > down to us. Like it or not, there would be no Zen Buddhism without it. I > > suspect you're confused between the difference between the practice and > > traditions of Zen Buddhism and Buddha Nature. > > > > Mike > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > To: <uerusuboyo@>; > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > > Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 2:59:42 PM > > > > > > Mike, > > > > 2500 years ago Buddha never spent any time at a Zen centre/temple. Was > > Buddha "out of step with Zen practice"? Obviously he was out of step ONLY > > with your interpretation of it.... > > > > Buddha is everywhere, not just within Zen centres/temples. It's a teaching > > called "Mu Mon", the gateless gate.... meaning you are already there, you > > don't have to go anywhere to find what is everywhere; it's just a matter of > > realizing it where you are... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:51 PM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > Edgar, > > > > > >If you've spent any meaningful time at a Zen centre/temple, then you'd > > >realise why you're so wrong on this matter and out of step with Zen > > >practice. > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@>; > > >To: <[email protected]>; > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > > >Sent: Sat, Apr 6, 2013 5:37:09 PM > > > > > > > > >à> > >Mike, > > > > > > > > >Your comments appear to come from a mindset that thinks of meditation as > > >an unpleasant detailed chore you have to undergo to achieve something you > > >desire.... > > > > > > > > >But if your meditation is an unpleasant chore it's not been done correctly. > > > > > > > > >Follow your Buddha and forget the rest! > > > > > > > > >Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Apr 6, 2013, at 12:58 PM, uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > >à> > >>William, > > >> > > >>What difference does it make? Well, the alternative then could be its no > > >>problem if you scratch your arse and pick your nose while sitting zazen. > > >>Then again, why sit zazen? How about sitting with your back against the > > >>wall or bringing your favourite bean bag to sit on. Come to think about > > >>it even further, why even bother going to the Zen centre at the > > >>designated time. And no, I'm not being facetious here. > > >> > > >>Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>________________________________ > > >> From: William Rintala <brintala@>; > > >>To: <[email protected]>; > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > > >>Sent: Sat, Apr 6, 2013 2:51:33 PM > > >> > > >> > > >>à> > >> > > >> > > >>Bill: > > >>à> > >>àààI have to side withàEdgar here. What real differenceà> > >>does it make how youàhold your hands?ààI have seen numerous > > >>positions and the only useful explanation given was that a difficultà> > >>hand position kept the individual from falling asleep. > > >>à> > >> > > >>à> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>________________________________ > > >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >>To: [email protected] > > >>Sent: Fri, April 5, 2013 8:02:53 PM > > >>Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > > >> > > >>à> > >>Edgar, > > >> > > >>I again agree with your post below, but offer an alternate interpretation > > >>to the last phrase of your last line..., "...not getting mired in > > >>interminable details." > > >> > > >>Many of the teachings, dogmas and rituals of Zen Buddhism, Buddhism and > > >>religions in general are taught to do precisely that - keep the student > > >>from getting 'mired down details'. > > >> > > >>In this example if you are told how to hold your hands and then practice > > >>that you don't have to worry about your hands anymore. You are free to do > > >>whatever else it is that the religion wants you to do. It's the same in > > >>any activity like praying, bowing, and even sports. If you learn the > > >>basics by rote you can then practice them without having to think anymore > > >>about them anymore. > > >> > > >>Just a thought on this... > > >> > > >>...Bill! > > >> > > >>--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Joe, > > >>> > > >>> Again all these details only distract from the real point. Buddha is > > >>> Buddha, no matter what his posture, whether his hands are closed or > > >>> open, his eyes open, closed or half closed. > > >>> > > >>> Zen is realizing your inner Buddha, not getting mired in interminable > > >>> details... > > >>> > > >>> You'll never realize Buddha if you are always checking your hands, your > > >>> posture and whatever... > > >>> > > >>> Edgar > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Joe wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > Merle, > > >>> > > > >>> > Your teacher may tell you differently. > > >>> > > > >>> > I learned to place the RIGHT hand in a loose "fist", and hold it at > > >>> > about the navel. Then to cover the right fist with the LEFT hand. > > >>> > With the left thumb on top of the right fist. And just keep the > > >>> > shoulders and arms relaxed while standing or walking this > > way. > > >>> > > > >>> > It's a natural and relaxed "closed" position, rather than letting the > > >>> > arms dangle openly at the sides. > > >>> > > > >>> > This is also called "kinhin mudra", or Shashu. It's used when doing > > >>> > walking meditation, "kinhin". It's also used when standing; and, when > > >>> > standing and listening to the Dharma, as when the teacher is speaking > > >>> > and we are on our feet. > > >>> > > > >>> > When walking about the zendo, or outside it, people often walk using > > >>> > Shashu hand position, too, and never swing the arms at the sides. > > >>> > This is not a rule, it's a Practice. It helps us to keep in mind that > > >>> > we are there to PRACTICE, ...not to walk around. > > >>> > > > >>> > We have a lot of practical reminders of what we're doing there, what > > >>> > we're there for. This is one of them. It sets an "atmosphere", too, > > >>> > about the place, an attitude of protecting our place of practice, so > > >>> > we can all > > practice without disruption, and come to awakening. > > >>> > > > >>> > It's a small thing, but small things are big when things quiet down, > > >>> > and we become more sensitive. So, we do this. For ourselves and for > > >>> > each other. It's also a way of quieting things down. > > >>> > > > >>> > The Zen tradition has always emphasized practicing together. And it > > >>> > has such ways of helping this work really well. > > >>> > > > >>> > Eyes are usually open in everything, except when sleeping. They > > >>> > "see", but are not looking in focused fashion at anything in > > >>> > particular. Sight is passive, and we do not "stare" at anything, nor > > >>> > look around. When we sit or stand to meditate, we do not move any > > >>> > part of the body, not even the eyes. Of course, the breath comes and > > >>> > goes naturally by itself without controlling. > > >>> > > > >>> > Well, again, this is as I learned it and as many of us do it. > > >>> > > > >>> > My teacher used to tell us, though, that, "Wherever you go, just fall > > right in with how they practice, > > there." As a guest, do as the host does. > > >>> > > > >>> > Harmonizing is probably key to the whole business. Water flows > > >>> > easily, but a brittle stick is stubborn, and makes a loud noise when > > >>> > it snaps (then, opportunity is lost). > > >>> > > > >>> > Good practice! > > >>> > > > >>> > The Zen in a Chair teacher may give some good example and model these > > >>> > things. I hope it goes well! > > >>> > > > >>> > --Joe > > >>> > > > >>> > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>> > > joe..thank you..can you describe how the hands are held in standing > > >>> > > meditation.?... i had the feeling i needed to open my eyes however > > >>> > > in the past types of meditations there is the instruction to close > > >>> > > the eyes...merle > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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