bill!!! how stupid of me.... good mind reading...yes was buddha a zen buddhist?... yes i get your drift..one forgets..of course jesus was not a christian he was a jew and same with buddha...the question remains then...what did both buddha and jesus find so lacking in hindu and jewish religions that they need to evolve?... are we evolving too?... can zen buddhism evolve now from what it is to something it has not been?
Merle, IMO... No,Buddha (Gautama Shiddartha) was not a Zen Buddhist or a Buddhist. I believe he was a Hindu. But that's like asking if Jesus was a Christian. No, he wasn't. He was a Jew. Christianity came after Jesus. I think what you mean to ask is 'did Buddha practice zen'? And if that's your question I'd say 'yes'. At least he meditated is what I would call is very much what we know today as 'zazen', and he 'started zen' when he 'transmitted the Dharma' to his student Mahakasyapa at his famous 'Flower Sermon' at Vulture Peak. But did Buddha have any real Buddhist credentials? Nope... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  >  group..was buddha a ZEN buddhist though.????? merle >  > Edgar, > > I've already said that here that Buddha never taught learnt or taught > something called Buddhism. But he did rediscover the Dharma. He also had the > best teachers in India teach him meditation techniques before his > enlightenment. But the key point here is THAT HE WENT AROUND INDIA *TEACHING* > THE DHARMA. > > Likewise, Hui-neng was awakened upon hearing a sutra. It was within the > confines of a Zen temple that he then went on to write his "no dust" poem and > that *because* of the teaching relationship of Zen this poem has come down to > us. Like it or not, there would be no Zen Buddhism without it. I suspect > you're confused between the difference between the practice and traditions of > Zen Buddhism and Buddha Nature. > > Mike > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > ________________________________ > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > To: <uerusuboyo@...>; > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > Sent: Sun, Apr 7, 2013 2:59:42 PM > > > Mike, > > 2500 years ago Buddha never spent any time at a Zen centre/temple. Was Buddha > "out of step with Zen practice"? Obviously he was out of step ONLY with your > interpretation of it.... > > Buddha is everywhere, not just within Zen centres/temples. It's a teaching > called "Mu Mon", the gateless gate.... meaning you are already there, you > don't have to go anywhere to find what is everywhere; it's just a matter of > realizing it where you are... > > Edgar > > > > > On Apr 6, 2013, at 7:51 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > Edgar, > > > >If you've spent any meaningful time at a Zen centre/temple, then you'd > >realise why you're so wrong on this matter and out of step with Zen practice. > > > >Mike > > > > > >Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...>; > >To: <[email protected]>; > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > >Sent: Sat, Apr 6, 2013 5:37:09 PM > > > > > > > >Mike, > > > > > >Your comments appear to come from a mindset that thinks of meditation as an > >unpleasant detailed chore you have to undergo to achieve something you > >desire.... > > > > > >But if your meditation is an unpleasant chore it's not been done correctly. > > > > > >Follow your Buddha and forget the rest! > > > > > >Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >On Apr 6, 2013, at 12:58 PM, uerusuboyo@... wrote: > > > > > >>William, > >> > >>What difference does it make? Well, the alternative then could be its no > >>problem if you scratch your arse and pick your nose while sitting zazen. > >>Then again, why sit zazen? How about sitting with your back against the > >>wall or bringing your favourite bean bag to sit on. Come to think about it > >>even further, why even bother going to the Zen centre at the designated > >>time. And no, I'm not being facetious here. > >> > >>Mike > >> > >> > >> > >>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > >> > >> > >> > >>________________________________ > >> From: William Rintala <brintala@...>; > >>To: <[email protected]>; > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > >>Sent: Sat, Apr 6, 2013 2:51:33 PM > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>Bill: > >> > >>   I have to side with Edgar here. What real difference does it make > >>how you hold your hands?  I have seen numerous positions and the only > >>useful explanation given was that a difficult hand position kept the > >>individual from falling asleep. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>________________________________ > >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > >>To: [email protected] > >>Sent: Fri, April 5, 2013 8:02:53 PM > >>Subject: [Zen] Re: standing zen meditation > >> > >> > >>Edgar, > >> > >>I again agree with your post below, but offer an alternate interpretation > >>to the last phrase of your last line..., "...not getting mired in > >>interminable details." > >> > >>Many of the teachings, dogmas and rituals of Zen Buddhism, Buddhism and > >>religions in general are taught to do precisely that - keep the student > >>from getting 'mired down details'. > >> > >>In this example if you are told how to hold your hands and then practice > >>that you don't have to worry about your hands anymore. You are free to do > >>whatever else it is that the religion wants you to do. It's the same in any > >>activity like praying, bowing, and even sports. If you learn the basics by > >>rote you can then practice them without having to think anymore about them > >>anymore. > >> > >>Just a thought on this... > >> > >>...Bill! > >> > >>--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>> > >>> Joe, > >>> > >>> Again all these details only distract from the real point. Buddha is > >>> Buddha, no matter what his posture, whether his hands are closed or open, > >>> his eyes open, closed or half closed. > >>> > >>> Zen is realizing your inner Buddha, not getting mired in interminable > >>> details... > >>> > >>> You'll never realize Buddha if you are always checking your hands, your > >>> posture and whatever... > >>> > >>> Edgar > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Apr 5, 2013, at 12:00 PM, Joe wrote: > >>> > >>> > Merle, > >>> > > >>> > Your teacher may tell you differently. > >>> > > >>> > I learned to place the RIGHT hand in a loose "fist", and hold it at > >>> > about the navel. Then to cover the right fist with the LEFT hand. With > >>> > the left thumb on top of the right fist. And just keep the shoulders > >>> > and arms relaxed while standing or walking this > way. > >>> > > >>> > It's a natural and relaxed "closed" position, rather than letting the > >>> > arms dangle openly at the sides. > >>> > > >>> > This is also called "kinhin mudra", or Shashu. It's used when doing > >>> > walking meditation, "kinhin". It's also used when standing; and, when > >>> > standing and listening to the Dharma, as when the teacher is speaking > >>> > and we are on our feet. > >>> > > >>> > When walking about the zendo, or outside it, people often walk using > >>> > Shashu hand position, too, and never swing the arms at the sides. This > >>> > is not a rule, it's a Practice. It helps us to keep in mind that we are > >>> > there to PRACTICE, ...not to walk around. > >>> > > >>> > We have a lot of practical reminders of what we're doing there, what > >>> > we're there for. This is one of them. It sets an "atmosphere", too, > >>> > about the place, an attitude of protecting our place of practice, so we > >>> > can all > practice without disruption, and come to awakening. > >>> > > >>> > It's a small thing, but small things are big when things quiet down, > >>> > and we become more sensitive. So, we do this. For ourselves and for > >>> > each other. It's also a way of quieting things down. > >>> > > >>> > The Zen tradition has always emphasized practicing together. And it has > >>> > such ways of helping this work really well. > >>> > > >>> > Eyes are usually open in everything, except when sleeping. They "see", > >>> > but are not looking in focused fashion at anything in particular. Sight > >>> > is passive, and we do not "stare" at anything, nor look around. When we > >>> > sit or stand to meditate, we do not move any part of the body, not even > >>> > the eyes. Of course, the breath comes and goes naturally by itself > >>> > without controlling. > >>> > > >>> > Well, again, this is as I learned it and as many of us do it. > >>> > > >>> > My teacher used to tell us, though, that, "Wherever you go, just fall > right in with how they practice, > there." As a guest, do as the host does. > >>> > > >>> > Harmonizing is probably key to the whole business. Water flows easily, > >>> > but a brittle stick is stubborn, and makes a loud noise when it snaps > >>> > (then, opportunity is lost). > >>> > > >>> > Good practice! > >>> > > >>> > The Zen in a Chair teacher may give some good example and model these > >>> > things. I hope it goes well! > >>> > > >>> > --Joe > >>> > > >>> > > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > joe..thank you..can you describe how the hands are held in standing > >>> > > meditation.?... i had the feeling i needed to open my eyes however in > >>> > > the past types of meditations there is the instruction to close the > >>> > > eyes...merle > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >
