bob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle
Bob,
Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was:
"The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while remaining
conscious?"
Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using the
word 'senses'.
'Senses' to me is an awkward, dualistically-based word used in part to describe
just plain experience. (I sometimes use the phrase 'direct, sensory
experience' just to be clear, but the qualifiers 'direct' and 'sensory' are
redundant and might lead you to believe there is such a thing as 'indirect' or
'non-sensory' experiences. There are not.) The word 'sense' itself implies
an 'avenue' or 'interface' which 'connects' us with the 'outside world'. We
divide 'senses' up into five categories: sight, hearing, touch, smell and
taste. But there is no 'outside world', no 'interface' and only one experience
('sense') - and I usually call that Buddha Nature or Just THIS!.
If you're wondering why I'm trying to be very precise about this it's because
sentient-ness (having senses) is very key to Buddha Nature - not rationality or
logic or emotions or memory or projections or physicality or anything else.
Just sentient-ness.
The term 'perceptions' IMO are the concepts (illusions) created by our
discriminating, rational mind (intellect) which post-processes experience with
such rational actions as filtering, augmenting, categorizing, evaluating, etc...
So maybe when you say "different levels of awareness of our senses" you are
saying (in my terms) there is experience, and then there is a whole host of
levels of perceptions. And maybe not...
I have no idea what you think the story about the drawing has to do with your
'senses'. You recognizing a line drawing as "an orchid in all its glory" is a
perception - not an (direct, sensory) experience.
So, I repeat my question again in a little different way...
When you say "The senses do need to be engaged but should work 'properly'...",
what exactly to you mean by that?
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@...> wrote:
>
> HI Bill thanks for the welcome.
>
> To answer your question I think there are different levels of awareness of
> our senses. To remind the new meditators of their senses brings, what is
> normally an autonomous process back into 'immediate reality' (indicating a
> clearer idea of the senses rather than the reality of reality - if you know
> what I mean).
>
> Many years ago a group of us did an experiment in focus and coming in touch
> with the senses. We were given a large sheet of drwg paper and some charcoal.
> We all had to draw a huge orchid in a brass pot. I am useless at art and
> drawing match stick people is a stretch. Having meditated, done a few
> straight lines and a few circles we started by concentrating on a single
> point, drawing that and then moving on. After a short time I stood back and
> was astounded that I had drawn an orchid in all its glory.
>
> I hope this answers your question.
>
> Bob
>
> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Welcome to the group..
> >
> > I was also taught to relax my eyes so they are only 'half' open, lower my
> > gaze to about 3 feet in front of me and allow my eyes to de-focus. Closed
> > eyes were discouraged to help keep your mind from wandering, minimize
> > visualizations and because as you note of the tendency to sleep.
> >
> > The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while
> > remaining conscious?
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote:
> > >
> > > HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes but
> > > not at first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work 'properly'
> > > ie not allowing the ego to take control of them and run with them. Easier
> > > said than done. The ego, as it throws up things, always strike me like
> > > files with a 'look at this' on the front of them.
> > >
> > > I take the guys through getting in contact with their senses prior to
> > > starting meditation encompassing the idea of 'nowhere to go and nothing
> > > to do'. I find that they can deal with the issues of meditation easier
> > > with their eyes closed in the early stages. Eventually a few things
> > > happen as they get stronger, sleep disappears as an issue and they
> > > naturally sit more upright. Then open eyes are easier.
> > >
> > > A start is a start it means nothing, it is where you end up that counts.
> > > Entry is from anywhere. In Zen's case you end up not being able to open
> > > your mouth to say anything sensible. Strange really!
> > >
> > > Nice talking to you.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bob,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file. Well
> > > > done and generous teaching and encouragement. Gee, I wish I could sit
> > > > with your group.
> > > >
> > > > I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered it as
> > > > taught and as practiced, we do not close the eyes.
> > > >
> > > > There are two reason for this.
> > > >
> > > > One is that we do not screen-out ANYTHING in our practice, as I've
> > > > found it. All six senses are allowed to operate without screening.
> > > > The "mind" is usually considered one of the six senses, so we do not
> > > > suppress or screen out thoughts either: instead, we put all attention
> > > > on the method of practice. If thoughts arise, we just do not follow
> > > > them: that is not "screening", but it is just doing ONE thing at a
> > > > time: remaining concentrated upon the method of practice in the time
> > > > when we set ourself to practice.
> > > >
> > > > The second reason is that Zen practice is about opening to wisdom,
> > > > through awakening. Closed eyes can lead to drowsiness and ... to sleep.
> > > >
> > > > Well, nothing new in these comments. And they are just that,
> > > > comments.
> > > >
> > > > I like your noting the usefulness of the point of contact of the hands.
> > > > I find in general that a closed mudra comes more naturally in our way
> > > > of sitting, and does more good than an open mudra, a dispersing mudra,
> > > > or no mudra. Hmm-m, I meant to write about this here last week, but
> > > > the death of a very close sangha friend intervened and put me off doing
> > > > much of anything: "Jim", a fellow who practiced his zazen with us
> > > > always in a wheelchair. I'll get back to writing sometime.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again posting!
> > > >
> > > > --Joe
> > > >
> > > > > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I also put statements and questions I prepare to them after the
> > > > > group. I have attached a couple - (oops! attachments not so easy will
> > > > > try another time).
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
