...and in fact it's the very thing you complained about in a previous post when you said you couldn't stop thinking about things enough to sit properly.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > Merle, > > All they need to be able to realize Buddha Nature is to be sentient. They > can have an IQ of 20. It doesn't matter because realizing Buddha Nature is > not an intellectual activity. In fact it's the intellect itself that usually > is what stands in the way of realizing Buddha Nature, and it exactly what it > the target of chants, bowing, koans, etc..., to allow you to realize Buddha > Nature. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Â right oh bill...so why are they in many ways so cold, and uncaring ..is > > this buddha nature?..and how are you going to get them to make > > realisations?..merle > > > > > > Â > > Merle, > > > > That's a VERY GOOD QUESTION! > > > > An autistic person can certainly realize Buddha Nature since that only > > requires sentient-ness, not any intellectual quality. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ question:bob: so would an autistic person who is not perhaps engaging > > > in all the senses.. > > > but in many ways acts like a machine how does the mind figure in this > > > equation you have set out here regarding senses and zen?ÃÂ > > > merle > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ bob..you forgot the 6th sense..merle > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > Bob, > > > > > > Thanks for your reply but it did not answer my question which was: > > > > > > "The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > > remaining conscious?" > > > > > > Perhaps we're using the same words differently. Here is how I am using > > > the word 'senses'. > > > > > > 'Senses' to me is an awkward, dualistically-based word used in part to > > > describe just plain experience. (I sometimes use the phrase 'direct, > > > sensory experience' just to be clear, but the qualifiers 'direct' and > > > 'sensory' are redundant and might lead you to believe there is such a > > > thing as 'indirect' or 'non-sensory' experiences. There are not.) The > > > word 'sense' itself implies an 'avenue' or 'interface' which 'connects' > > > us with the 'outside world'. We divide 'senses' up into five categories: > > > sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste. But there is no 'outside world', > > > no 'interface' and only one experience ('sense') - and I usually call > > > that Buddha Nature or Just THIS!. > > > > > > If you're wondering why I'm trying to be very precise about this it's > > > because sentient-ness (having senses) is very key to Buddha Nature - not > > > rationality or logic or emotions or memory or projections or physicality > > > or anything else. Just sentient-ness. > > > > > > The term 'perceptions' IMO are the concepts (illusions) created by our > > > discriminating, rational mind (intellect) which post-processes experience > > > with such rational actions as filtering, augmenting, categorizing, > > > evaluating, etc... > > > > > > So maybe when you say "different levels of awareness of our senses" you > > > are saying (in my terms) there is experience, and then there is a whole > > > host of levels of perceptions. And maybe not... > > > > > > I have no idea what you think the story about the drawing has to do with > > > your 'senses'. You recognizing a line drawing as "an orchid in all its > > > glory" is a perception - not an (direct, sensory) experience. > > > > > > So, I repeat my question again in a little different way... > > > > > > When you say "The senses do need to be engaged but should work > > > 'properly'...", what exactly to you mean by that? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > HI Bill thanks for the welcome. > > > > > > > > To answer your question I think there are different levels of awareness > > > > of our senses. To remind the new meditators of their senses brings, > > > > what is normally an autonomous process back into 'immediate reality' > > > > (indicating a clearer idea of the senses rather than the reality of > > > > reality - if you know what I mean). > > > > > > > > Many years ago a group of us did an experiment in focus and coming in > > > > touch with the senses. We were given a large sheet of drwg paper and > > > > some charcoal. We all had to draw a huge orchid in a brass pot. I am > > > > useless at art and drawing match stick people is a stretch. Having > > > > meditated, done a few straight lines and a few circles we started by > > > > concentrating on a single point, drawing that and then moving on. After > > > > a short time I stood back and was astounded that I had drawn an orchid > > > > in all its glory. > > > > > > > > I hope this answers your question. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to the group.. > > > > > > > > > > I was also taught to relax my eyes so they are only 'half' open, > > > > > lower my gaze to about 3 feet in front of me and allow my eyes to > > > > > de-focus. Closed eyes were discouraged to help keep your mind from > > > > > wandering, minimize visualizations and because as you note of the > > > > > tendency to sleep. > > > > > > > > > > The senses are always engaged. How could you disengage them while > > > > > remaining conscious? > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > HI Joe - I agree. I was taught to squint through slightly open eyes > > > > > > but not at first. The senses do need to be engaged but should work > > > > > > 'properly' ie not allowing the ego to take control of them and run > > > > > > with them. Easier said than done. The ego, as it throws up things, > > > > > > always strike me like files with a 'look at this' on the front of > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > I take the guys through getting in contact with their senses prior > > > > > > to starting meditation encompassing the idea of 'nowhere to go and > > > > > > nothing to do'. I find that they can deal with the issues of > > > > > > meditation easier with their eyes closed in the early stages. > > > > > > Eventually a few things happen as they get stronger, sleep > > > > > > disappears as an issue and they naturally sit more upright. Then > > > > > > open eyes are easier. > > > > > > > > > > > > A start is a start it means nothing, it is where you end up that > > > > > > counts. Entry is from anywhere. In Zen's case you end up not being > > > > > > able to open your mouth to say anything sensible. Strange really! > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice talking to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for posting the "notes" to the Group site as a .doc file. > > > > > > > Well done and generous teaching and encouragement. Gee, I wish I > > > > > > > could sit with your group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll note that, in general, in Zen practice as I've encountered > > > > > > > it as taught and as practiced, we do not close the eyes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are two reason for this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is that we do not screen-out ANYTHING in our practice, as > > > > > > > I've found it. All six senses are allowed to operate without > > > > > > > screening. The "mind" is usually considered one of the six > > > > > > > senses, so we do not suppress or screen out thoughts either: > > > > > > > instead, we put all attention on the method of practice. If > > > > > > > thoughts arise, we just do not follow them: that is not > > > > > > > "screening", but it is just doing ONE thing at a time: remaining > > > > > > > concentrated upon the method of practice in the time when we set > > > > > > > ourself to practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The second reason is that Zen practice is about opening to > > > > > > > wisdom, through awakening. Closed eyes can lead to drowsiness > > > > > > > and ... to sleep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, nothing new in these comments. And they are just that, > > > > > > > comments. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like your noting the usefulness of the point of contact of the > > > > > > > hands. I find in general that a closed mudra comes more > > > > > > > naturally in our way of sitting, and does more good than an open > > > > > > > mudra, a dispersing mudra, or no mudra. Hmm-m, I meant to write > > > > > > > about this here last week, but the death of a very close sangha > > > > > > > friend intervened and put me off doing much of anything: "Jim", a > > > > > > > fellow who practiced his zazen with us always in a wheelchair. > > > > > > > I'll get back to writing sometime. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again posting! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "bobthomas564" <bobthomas564@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I also put statements and questions I prepare to them after the > > > > > > > > group. I have attached a couple - (oops! attachments not so > > > > > > > > easy will try another time). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
