Edgar, Is this part of Stage 3?
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and effect > or not! > > Jeeeez! > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Mike, > > > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and effect. So > > does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat". Implying > > doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to describe impromptu, > > unconditioned action, not to illustrate cause-and-effect. > > > > Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to jump to > > the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for 500 lifetimes is > > NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was POSITIVE karma. Also you've > > neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 lifetimes as a fox) was dismissed > > as soon as the old man heard the turning words. These words broke the chain > > of cause-and-effect. > > > > I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but it is > > doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of causation (the chain > > of cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, and two because 'morality' > > is just another one of those two-sided coins with 'moral' on one side and > > 'immoral' on the other. In other words is a dualistic concept which makes > > it illusory. Dogen didn't really use this term,did he? > > > > You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO AND THE > > FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously not so because > > the turning word removed them. > > > > For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to > > cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them he is > > not enlightened. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of illusions > > > and that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms of the relative > > > (I've never claimed anything as not being illusory, just that to do so is > > > not practical to live a human life). For example, in Zen the saying is > > > 'When hungry we eat' (how's that for cause and effect!). It doesn't say > > > 'When hungry - just dismiss hunger as illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of > > > the last part of the koan is just that karma is not fixed (determined) > > > and can be changed. Even the negative karma of living as a fox for 500 > > > lifetimes was eventually extinguished (it could even be argued that 500 > > > lifetimes was necessary before the old man could become enlightened, > > > therefore making it positive karma if that is what was required for his > > > enlightenment). <br/><br/>I cut this from > > > angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in this passage refers to "moral > > > causation." The Buddhist concept of Karma acknowledges that > > > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad effects. Thus > > > the import of the question posed by the "fox" is whether or not the > > > Enlightened person is subject to Karma. Hyakujo's answer, in effect, > > > affirms that the Enlightened person is subject to moral causation. > > > Katsuki Sekida offers a common Zen interpretation of this passage in his > > > comment: "Thus to ignore causation only compounds one's malady. To > > > recognize causation constitutes the remedy for it." See Karma and Free > > > Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's employment of this story in the "Daishugyo" > > > chapter of the Shobogenzo implies that, on one level, he thinks Hyakujo's > > > answer indeed provides a "remedy" for the old man's predicament. Yet > > > Dogen was rarely content with merely citing traditional Zen > > > interpretations of passages; typically, he sought to push his students to > > > a further understanding by a creative reinterpretation of a passage. Lest > > > his disciple therefore think this > > > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from it in an > > > ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means "cause and effect > > > are immovable." In other words, moral causation, for Dogen, is an > > > inexorable fact of human existence."<br/><br/>For me then (this is Mike > > > speaking!), the enlightened person is still subject to cause and effect, > > > but is not fooled by it. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
