Edgar, But I don't want to go to Stage 4! I assume I've already been there if I'm now in Stage 3. I want to hear about Stage 2!
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > If you're a good boy I might tell you about stage 4! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus > > > generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness is > > > real.... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > Is this part of Stage 3? > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? > > > > > > > > > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and > > > > > effect or not! > > > > > > > > > > Jeeeez! > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > > > > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and > > > > > > effect. So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we > > > > > > eat". Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to > > > > > > describe impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate > > > > > > cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to > > > > > > jump to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for > > > > > > 500 lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was > > > > > > POSITIVE karma. Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' > > > > > > (500 lifetimes as a fox) was dismissed as soon as the old man heard > > > > > > the turning words. These words broke the chain of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but > > > > > > it is doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of > > > > > > causation (the chain of cause-and-effect relationships) is > > > > > > illusory, and two because 'morality' is just another one of those > > > > > > two-sided coins with 'moral' on one side and 'immoral' on the > > > > > > other. In other words is a dualistic concept which makes it > > > > > > illusory. Dogen didn't really use this term,did he? > > > > > > > > > > > > You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO > > > > > > AND THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously > > > > > > not so because the turning word removed them. > > > > > > > > > > > > For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to > > > > > > cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them > > > > > > he is not enlightened. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of > > > > > > > illusions and that is why we need to see things as "real" in > > > > > > > terms of the relative (I've never claimed anything as not being > > > > > > > illusory, just that to do so is not practical to live a human > > > > > > > life). For example, in Zen the saying is 'When hungry we eat' > > > > > > > (how's that for cause and effect!). It doesn't say 'When hungry - > > > > > > > just dismiss hunger as illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of the > > > > > > > last part of the koan is just that karma is not fixed > > > > > > > (determined) and can be changed. Even the negative karma of > > > > > > > living as a fox for 500 lifetimes was eventually extinguished (it > > > > > > > could even be argued that 500 lifetimes was necessary before the > > > > > > > old man could become enlightened, therefore making it positive > > > > > > > karma if that is what was required for his enlightenment). > > > > > > > <br/><br/>I cut this from angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in > > > > > > > this passage refers to "moral causation." The Buddhist concept of > > > > > > > Karma acknowledges that > > > > > > > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad > > > > > > > effects. Thus the import of the question posed by the "fox" is > > > > > > > whether or not the Enlightened person is subject to Karma. > > > > > > > Hyakujo's answer, in effect, affirms that the Enlightened person > > > > > > > is subject to moral causation. Katsuki Sekida offers a common Zen > > > > > > > interpretation of this passage in his comment: "Thus to ignore > > > > > > > causation only compounds one's malady. To recognize causation > > > > > > > constitutes the remedy for it." See Karma and Free > > > > > > > Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's employment of this story in the > > > > > > > "Daishugyo" chapter of the Shobogenzo implies that, on one level, > > > > > > > he thinks Hyakujo's answer indeed provides a "remedy" for the old > > > > > > > man's predicament. Yet Dogen was rarely content with merely > > > > > > > citing traditional Zen interpretations of passages; typically, he > > > > > > > sought to push his students to a further understanding by a > > > > > > > creative reinterpretation of a passage. Lest his disciple > > > > > > > therefore think this > > > > > > > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from > > > > > > > it in an ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means > > > > > > > "cause and effect are immovable." In other words, moral > > > > > > > causation, for Dogen, is an inexorable fact of human > > > > > > > existence."<br/><br/>For me then (this is Mike speaking!), the > > > > > > > enlightened person is still subject to cause and effect, but is > > > > > > > not fooled by it. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
