Edgar, Great! Now that I'm finished with Stage 3 can I move on to Stage 2?
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Absolutely! You as an empty form being hit by the empty form of a bus > generates the empty form of you dying. It's all empty, but emptiness is > real.... > > Edgar > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:17 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > Is this part of Stage 3? > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > If you think you are NOT bound by cause and effect why can't you fly? > > > > > > Try stepping in front of a bus and see if you are bound by cause and > > > effect or not! > > > > > > Jeeeez! > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:27 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > > > The zen saying "When hungry we (sic) eat" does imply cause and effect. > > > > So does "When hungry we don't eat" and "When not hungry we eat". > > > > Implying doesn't make it so. The saying is just meant to describe > > > > impromptu, unconditioned action, not to illustrate cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > Also (and IMO) you're reading a little too much into the koan to jump > > > > to the conclusion that being cast into the body of a fox for 500 > > > > lifetimes is NEGATIVE karma or being released from that was POSITIVE > > > > karma. Also you've neglected to note that the 'effect' (500 lifetimes > > > > as a fox) was dismissed as soon as the old man heard the turning words. > > > > These words broke the chain of cause-and-effect. > > > > > > > > I don't know who every came up with the term 'moral causation' but it > > > > is doubly problematic for me. One because the concept of causation (the > > > > chain of cause-and-effect relationships) is illusory, and two because > > > > 'morality' is just another one of those two-sided coins with 'moral' on > > > > one side and 'immoral' on the other. In other words is a dualistic > > > > concept which makes it illusory. Dogen didn't really use this term,did > > > > he? > > > > > > > > You do attribute to Dogen the statement in relationship to HYAKUJO AND > > > > THE FOX that "cause-and-effect are immovable". That's obviously not so > > > > because the turning word removed them. > > > > > > > > For me (and this is Bill! speaking) a person is only subject to > > > > cause-and-effect if he fooled by them, and if he is fooled by them he > > > > is not enlightened. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill!,<br/><br/>As you say, we do need to live in the world of > > > > > illusions and that is why we need to see things as "real" in terms of > > > > > the relative (I've never claimed anything as not being illusory, just > > > > > that to do so is not practical to live a human life). For example, in > > > > > Zen the saying is 'When hungry we eat' (how's that for cause and > > > > > effect!). It doesn't say 'When hungry - just dismiss hunger as > > > > > illusion'. <br/><br/>My reading of the last part of the koan is just > > > > > that karma is not fixed (determined) and can be changed. Even the > > > > > negative karma of living as a fox for 500 lifetimes was eventually > > > > > extinguished (it could even be argued that 500 lifetimes was > > > > > necessary before the old man could become enlightened, therefore > > > > > making it positive karma if that is what was required for his > > > > > enlightenment). <br/><br/>I cut this from > > > > > angelfire.com:<br/><br/>"Causation" in this passage refers to "moral > > > > > causation." The Buddhist concept of Karma acknowledges that > > > > > good/bad deeds, thoughts, and so forth result in good/bad effects. > > > > > Thus the import of the question posed by the "fox" is whether or not > > > > > the Enlightened person is subject to Karma. Hyakujo's answer, in > > > > > effect, affirms that the Enlightened person is subject to moral > > > > > causation. Katsuki Sekida offers a common Zen interpretation of this > > > > > passage in his comment: "Thus to ignore causation only compounds > > > > > one's malady. To recognize causation constitutes the remedy for it." > > > > > See Karma and Free Will.<br/><br/>Dogen Zenji's employment of this > > > > > story in the "Daishugyo" chapter of the Shobogenzo implies that, on > > > > > one level, he thinks Hyakujo's answer indeed provides a "remedy" for > > > > > the old man's predicament. Yet Dogen was rarely content with merely > > > > > citing traditional Zen interpretations of passages; typically, he > > > > > sought to push his students to a further understanding by a creative > > > > > reinterpretation of a passage. Lest his disciple therefore think this > > > > > not-ignoring/recognition of causation is de facto a release from it > > > > > in an ultimate sense, Dogen answers that the passage means "cause and > > > > > effect are immovable." In other words, moral causation, for Dogen, is > > > > > an inexorable fact of human existence."<br/><br/>For me then (this is > > > > > Mike speaking!), the enlightened person is still subject to cause and > > > > > effect, but is not fooled by it. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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